Theories section revamp - your input is needed!

Panzer Dragoon
1

A while ago, there was a topic on this forum (sorry, couldn’t find the link) where someone raised the fact that the theories in the Theories section were of a varying degree of credibility. This is fine for long time Panzer fans who know the series inside out, but for new players it can create confusion and misinformation. The last thing we want if for someone to think my insane Time Travel Theory is actually realistically possible within the “rules” of the Panzer world.

We decided that the solution to this problem was not to remove any theories, but instead split the section into multiple sub sections, defined by how likely/possible the theory is. I’ve recently gone through the Theories section, and come up with my own thoughts on how the current Theories section could be split into four subsections, but it’s far from final. I’d like your feedback before making the changes, and any ideas at all on how this section could be structured better.

My idea is as follows:

Subsection 1: Disproven Theories

Sky Rider Theory (would need a note at the start explaining that this has since been disproven).
Garil Desert Theory (Would also need a note saying that this has been disproven - PD1 Episode 1 and the Garil Desert as not in the same place according to the official map)

Subsection 2: Unlikely Theories/Wild Speculation

Time Travel Theory
Panzer Dragoon’s Planet Theory (I guess this is possible, but Arcie himself said it wasn’t meant to be serious)
Heresy Rider Theory
Iva the Next Dragon Rider Theory
Gash’s Identity Theory

Subsection 3: Possible Theories, but lacking evidence in places

Anti Dragon Theory
Dark Dragon Theory (The Gold Dragon is the Dark Dragon? Seems possible)
Prototype Theory
Divine Visitor Theory (who knows what the DV was. Hardly anything in the game about him/her. I’d say that this is possible and not just a ‘what if’, but this might be open for debate).
Materialisation Out Of Thin Air Theory (lots of ideas here, but I think the main point was that we simply weren’t shown a scene. If that’s the case, this seems entirely possible).
Panzer Dragoon Creature Theory
The Book of Genesis Theory
Orta’s Father Theory
Downfall Of The Ancient Civilization Theory
Heretic Birth Theory
Wedged Gun Theory (looking back, I’m not sure how likely this is, but it at least seems possible)
Dark Rider Theory
War Without End Theory
Dragon Factory Theory
Azel’s Awakening Theory
Turning Solid Objects into Pure Energy Theory
Created in the Ancients’ Image Theory
Attached Dragon Mind Theory (not 100% sure about where these dragon theories should go)

Subsection 4: Likely/Probable Theories, backed up by multiple in game evidence and/or supported by multiple people in the PD community

Fourth Rider Theory (I think this is likely, but open to debate)
Panzer Dragoon Saga Ending Theory (might need tidying up to include evidence from Orta)
Gold Dragon Theory (fits well with Saga and Orta - seems likely to me)
Zoah Bible Theory (seems likely based on the events of Saga and Orta)
Race of Drones Theory
Panzer Dragoon Language Theory
Different Dragon’s Theory (one of the two big dragon theories)
Lagi Development Theory
Nature of the Dragon Theory
Sky Rider and Dark Dragon’s Rider Theory
Coolia Inconsistency Theory
Sunken Tower Theory
Dragon Life Cycle Theory (the other big dragon theory)

Do these belong in the Theories section at all?

Panzer Dragoon Zwei True Ending Theory (there’s nothing I could see which was obviously wrong with this, but it’s more of a collection of ideas than a theory - maybe it should be moved to another section?)
Panzer Dragoon Ending Theory (as with the PDZ true ending theory, this is more of a collection of ideas - maybe better in the Articles section?)
Excavation Site Theory (quite ‘summaryish’ all well, but it is making some theories too, so I’m not sure if this belongs in the Theories or another section… thoughts?)

I also think that “Theories” may not be the best name for the section; a rename to “Speculation” might be better. The subsections also need decent names.

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Well, everyone’s so accustomed to using the term theory, and I don’t see any problem with it. Though some speculation is clearly stretching the definition, by and large it’s appropriate.

There will be argument over where some of them belong no matter what I’m sure, if it were feasible for you to do so, I know I’d prefer some kind of rating tags. If the most important issue is not to mislead any new fans that are interested, that would work as well and not seem as condemning. If you think the section might be daunting in it’s current form that is perhaps a different issue.

Anyway, as I have (really Solo, I have…) been plugging away at my own monstrous exposition every night for about a week, it’s freshly apparent that half of it could maybe be in one of those classifications and the other half definitely not. So it will probly end up in the iffy pile regardless. In that respect I can’t feel too concerned about it.

So personally I think the best compromise would be maybe a new speculation section and then a rating for the theories. But however you decide to do it, we should maybe have a structured sticky thread for hashing out the vote?

EDIT: I just had a different take on it relating to my expressed concern about the classifications coming across as judgemental…

What about grouping them something along the lines of:

Informative

Speculative

Advanced

Incredible / Fanciful

So the criteria for informative would be articles that expose and expand on the clear themes of the series or - as you explained - widely held extrapolations and terminology, so catching new fans up on things one way or another. The others sort of speak for themselves, but the most differing paradigm here being that advanced could be theories that might end up not making the grade as obvious on the basis of much deeper interpretations.

Err, I’m not sure this even means anything, what I think I’m trying to get across is that we judge them less by a (ultimately somewhat subjective) criteria of how likely they are, but by how steeped one has to be in the material to make their own judgement… ?

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Thanks for the ideas, you’ve certainly left me with lots to consider.

Now, about a ratings system - how would that work exactly? Would that be a rating of 1 to 5, or something different? Also, how would it take into consideration new theories - would each one need to be voted on before being placed on the site?

[quote=“Heretic Agnostic”]EDIT: I just had a different take on it relating to my expressed concern about the classifications coming across as judgemental…

What about grouping them something along the lines of:

Informative

Speculative

Advanced

Incredible / Fanciful

So the criteria for informative would be articles that expose and expand on the clear themes of the series or - as you explained - widely held extrapolations and terminology, so catching new fans up on things one way or another. The others sort of speak for themselves, but the most differing paradigm here being that advanced could be theories that might end up not making the grade as obvious on the basis of much deeper interpretations.

Err, I’m not sure this even means anything, what I think I’m trying to get across is that we judge them less by a (ultimately somewhat subjective) criteria of how likely they are, but by how steeped one has to be in the material to make their own judgement… ?[/quote]

That’s certainly another way that we could do it - could you post up some examples of which theories would fit into which of those categories? I’m having some trouble visualizing it…

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OK, first by ratings I basically meant tags with their category, which amounts to the same thing and you can pretty much ignore that part. And my post edit idea is meant as alternative, as in I agree splitting it into classified pages would be a good thing.

And it’s been a couple years since I read all the theories - and I did read every one in it’s entirety - but I’ll try to find some good examples…

Race of Drones Theory: is not even about it’s nominal premise for most of it, and is almost equal measure informative and speculative. Lot’s of evidence is referenced, but lots of conjecture as well. Is it true? Does it exactly matter?

compared to -

War Without End Theory: which is a favorite of mine, not because I subscribe to it at all but it’s nearly the only article that examines many of the same discrepancies between the literal material and established viewpoints that also concern myself. And while I’d (subjectively) agree the titular premise is unlikely, it can hardly be accused of any lack of evidence. Just maybe stretches that evidence a little thin.

Both theories are very similar in content, with much exposition leading up to a conclusion, but one’s conclusion is only a “what if” that has little bearing on the existing games, whereas the other does impact the paradigm of the series narrative. Which is maybe why it’s more objectionable on a gut level? Taken as a whole, the themes both are wrestling with are essentially advanced though.

or…

Heretic Birth Theory: which is mostly informative in that it’s gathering anecdotes from more than one game that may easily go overlooked. It’s only conclusion seems fairly obvious (subjectively) and wouldn’t seem to step on any toes?

compared to -

Panzer Dragoon Saga Ending Theory: again mostly informative and gathering together the evidence, with at least as much speculation as the above theory. Yet again doesn’t seem to tread on any other assumptions.

Probably the majority would end up in the speculative category, the criteria being the type of article which principally extrapolates interesting possibilities about a known state or curiosity of the games, like your Anti Dragon Theory or the Wedged Gun Theory. Rather than attempt explanation of storyline related mysteries and conjecture filling in perceived gaps.

The disproven ones could probably fit in with incredible, which is basically ideas for fun like your Time Travel Theory and Crafted in the Ancients Image Theory, as well as anything else just too far out.

Most of those ? articles would be informative as well. Again this category doesn’t preclude speculation or hypotheses, just keep it to things that qualify as mostly disambiguation and aren’t too argumentative.

Both the big dragon theories would go in advanced of course, which is essentially theories that present an argument per se. In particular ones that may challenge ideas already on the table. Or that simply cross a lot of territory and/or elevate issues to new importance.

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I need to dive right back into the endless speculation we all loved again one day soon.

Heretic! If you ever played Still Life, we could share our theories on who the killer is (although I believe it’s fairly obvious). I figure you for a big conspiracy theory nut like myself.

I’m too busy with my WoW guild and real life to spend much time here I’m afraid. It’s on my list of things to do.

My ending theories still fit the definition IMO since the meaning of those endless is still open to interpretation. It’s up to you though Chris. You could classify them as merely speculation. I think at the time I just wanted to fill the site up with something worth reading.

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Hiya Geoffrey, I’m glad you’re enjoying WoW, at times I’ve wished that it had been enough for myself, I genuinely miss the kind of awesomeness it could at times be. And I haven’t played Still Life, so I’ll try and track it down soon, sounds interesting.

And a lot of your articles would probably qualify for informative status, from what I recall. Those labels are pretty much off the top of my head, again I’m just proposing that if the main concern is that, if someone with a new interest in the games reads the material, they shouldn’t be daunted and/or mislead; then things like the opposing dragon body theories in an equally “exalted” category could be just as confusing. And “advanced” might be a bad connotation… I can almost taste a better word but… not sure. I also get the impression “speculation” comes across as almost pejorative to some people, but it’s not at all, and certainly not as I (and I’m sure Solo) intend it?

I’m about to send my first “theory” to our host, hopefully before I fall asleep tonight even. You probly know what to expect… and I’m usually up for arguing about anything. :wink:

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Reviving an older topic…

I’ve recently been thinking about what to do to improve this section again. A while back I put a warning at the top of the Theories page basically saying that not all theories are equal. It’s difficult to put these articles into categories based on likelihood, and also the divisions that The Ancient suggested aren’t entirely clear-cut, although I’m not ruling out dividing up this section just yet.

However, perhaps a new section could be devised for ideas that can be logically discussed. Ideas could be set out in a short, logical way, that is easy to follow. The simpler the explanation the better, as opposed to the idea being buried amongst other speculation, etc, but could be linked to the speculative discussion articles in the current Theories section, as well as encyclopaedia entries. This section could essentially be a logically formatted collection of arguments put forward by people in the Panzer Dragoon community, with multiple people contributing ideas to each summary, and all possibilities discussed (both the arguments for and against). The summaries could be much more focused, laying out the arguments in a clear format with references to in game text, so would solve the issue of people not knowing what to believe in the Theories section. The section could be called “Arguments”.

Feedback on this idea would be appreciated.

8

Just going through some old bookmarks…

I think this topic can now be considered resolved - the old theories section was split into “Theories” and “Speculation” when TWOTA4 launched earlier this year. Any further comments are of course welcome.