The ghost of Lagi in Panzer Dragoon Saga?

Panzer Dragoon
1

While writing my theory for the thread about it being a different dragon in each game, I remembered something which I had completely forgotten about:

In Panzer Dragoon Saga, you can enter into the remains of Shellcoof and retrieve the Dragon Crest seen at the end of Zwei. This releases that enigmatic baby dragon, which is obviously the subject of much confusion. However, has everyone forgotten (like I did) what leads you to that room containing the Dragon Crest and the baby dragon? It is - for want of a better word - a “ghost” of a dragon, appearing inside Shellcoof, in the Blue Dragon / Solo Wing form. It is some kind of spectral entity apparently made out of energy, as it is able to pass straight through the corridor’s doors.

To sum up the facts:

  1. Lagi is last seen in Zwei entering into Shellcoof in the Blue Dragon / Solo Wing form. (If you did everything right, anyway.) At the end of the game, Lundi sees the Dragon Crest in Shellcoof glowing with the same light that was in Lagi’s throat. Lundi writes in his diary that he found Lagi’s body dead. However, some essence of Lagi was clearly retained within the crest.

  2. In Saga, you are greeted in Shellcoof by this dragon “ghost”, which is in exactly the same form that Lagi was in at the end of Zwei.

  3. The ghost / spirit leads you back to the room with the crest, which a physical creature - that is clearly in some way Lagi - emerges from.

My point is - given that Lagi’s spirit was inside Shellcoof, and that the baby dragon that came out of the crest was clearly a reincarnated Lagi - how can the dragon you are riding on also be Lagi? I think this adds even more weight to the idea that the dragon in Saga is a different creature, just guided by the same Heresy Program / Impurity.

But what do you guys think?

2

I see what you are saying, and it does make sense…personally, after all this conversation, I have no clue which dragon is ridden in Saga. x.X

3

That does make a lot of sense.

4

I thought of the ghost as more of a hologram guiding you to the crest which contained all the DNA data of dragon forms Lagi assumed in Panzer Dragoon Zwei. If you think of these forms as the products of spontaneous adaptation in Panzer Dragoon Zwei rather than pre-programmed forms (which they were due to the fact Lagi morphes according to however well you play), then his current evolutionary path wouldn’t lead to them.

Edge also wonders if the baby dragon is his dragon’s child, which of course, reflects the intent of the creators.

5

Or maybe not…
Characters aren’t omniscient…

My opnion:

Zwei- Lagi’s body died refuged itself inside a crest to recover energy…
SoloWing information is “left” ther ein a way…

Eins- That body is somehow “energized” by someone (possibly Sky Rider).It comes out as SoloWing.The dragon destroys the Tower and heads to Excavation Camp 4 ( i often see this as some prophecy;it was suposed to be Edge the one riding the dragon ) to rest (in the crest we see in the ruins).

Saga- The dragon as only been able to gather a level of energy (hence the BasicWing form;he must do his task (sensing the Tower’s presence).Eventually they find Shelcoof where you they can still find some SoloWing DNA info in the crest (BabyWing) and merge with it later on to regain the dragon’s true power.

So it’s Lagi all along.But beeing “composed” of energy he can materialize in diferent ways (that’s how I explain the appearence od BabyWing).Some of Lagi’s energy was left in Shellcoof and the other part went to Excavation Camp 4 to recharge.It could however fully recharge itself to BasicWing was formed.

6

Although I’ve considered this as an explanation of the baby dragon, it doesn’t make sense in a few ways, and I’ll explain why I think this:

Firstly, if the dragon was simply “re-assimilating” data, why would this make it suddenly able to morph into the Dark Dragon form? That creature had not even been encountered prior to PD1. My theory is that merging with the “baby dragon” just helped the dragon to re-attain the Blue Dragon form. Because the dragon now had the power to morph into different classes, it was able to reach the other Classes (of an equivalent power level) associated with that genetic form.

Secondly, why would the dragon have lost this data, supposing that it did not switch bodies between games?

Thirdly, the little baby dragon clearly isn’t just some random genetics to be assimilated, like the D Unit fragments. It’s a happy little living being, and as far as we know, it resembles only Lagi - but Lagi as Lundi would have fondly remembered him, as a pup. This is why I believe it was a reincarnation of his own consciosness / spirit, enabled in some way by the Dragon Crest.

If you are taking this odd statement to be the truth, then I am surprised that you are not willing to consider Lundi’s diary entry - which seems much better-informed - to also be literally accurate. As Edge doesn’t even know that his dragon is guided by the Impurity at this stage, he clearly doesn’t know much about its nature, and there would be no way for him to know some aspect of its past - i.e. Lagi also giving birth at the end of Zwei - that we have no idea about. I think that this is more than likely a random guess.

In regards to your idea that it is a thrown-in hint from the game’s creators: check out the debate D-Unit and I are having in the Theory about the Dragon Crests thread about the accuracy of the information in PD Orta’s Pandora’s Box. If that is open to criticism, I’d say that this would also qualify.

Plus, as I keep pointing out, the three seperate dragons that I am suggesting existed are repeatedly described as different beings in the games (particularly Orta). However, everyone is discounting those claims for exactly the same reasons that this one seems questionable; they could easily be misinformed.

7

I assumed Lagi was merely adapting to the world in Panzer Dragoon Zwei when he morphed from one shape to the next, but the ability to morph into the Dark Dragon does seem to suggest he simply possessed the knowledge of these forms all along. If the baby dragon was Lagi, as you say, then how would he possess the knowledge of that form given the fact he never took that shape in Panzer Dragoon Zwei? Perhaps the evolutionary path Lagi later took in Panzer Dragoon Saga precluded becoming the Solo Wing dragon for various reasons. We’ve always thought of the armoured blue dragon as a Tower killer, which was unnecessary in Panzer Dragoon Saga seeing as how the Heresy dragon intended to use Azel to open a pathway to Sestren as opposed to obliterating every single Tower on the planet one by one. Edge or the player, forced the evolution by merging Lagi with the baby dragon via a crest, thus changing the dragon into the Solo Wing dragon which could always morph into the Dark Dragon. As for the identity of the baby dragon, Lagi could’ve have made a clone of himself without the aid of a crest (as we no doubt witness at the end of Panzer Dragoon Orta) whose genetic make up was identical to his own at the time. That can lead to all sorts of possibilities…

I have no idea why Lagi downgraded himself into the Basic Wing. The Heresy dragon was the one with the memory of all these different dragon morphes so it wouldn’t be impossible even for a new dragon host to morph into the Solo Wing dragon (needing time to grow isn’t applicable here). I’m sure the real explanation lies with the creators simply wanting to experiment with new dragon morphes, not to mention beginning the game as the Solo Wing dragon wouldn’t allow for an acceptable learning curve.

8

The way I had always understood it was that the Heresy Program was responsible for all of the dragon’s growth-based metamorphoses. It was certainly responsible for Lagi’s initial mutations of wings, which leads me to believe that all the growth to follow was similarly due to it manipulating Lagi’s genetics at a basic level.

The Heresy Program was a product of the Sestren network, which was a vast repository of data from the Ancient Age all the way to the present day. It seemed to me that the Heresy Program knew of all these different physical forms simply because they were actual dragon designs from the Ancient Age, stored within Sestren’s databanks.

It seems clear that the Heresy Program chose to turn Lagi into the image of an Ancient Age dragon for the simple reason that the dragon was the ultimate living weapon designed by the Ancients. Thus it would have been the most powerful form the Heresy Program would be aware of, and so would be the most effective physical form to attempt to take down a Tower with.

My point, therefore, is that the Heresy Program just seemed to be following what knowledge it already had from Sestren’s memory banks while it evolved Lagi. This would also explain perfectly why it was eventually able to assume the Dark Dragon’s form; that was clearly an actual Ancient Age dragon.

This is an interesting point, and it hadn’t occured to me. As the alternate endings to Zwei show, however, the Tower could be destroyed by any one of a number of forms. I still think it’s more likely that the Blue Dragon / Solo Wing normal class was simply the ultimate dragon form known of by the Ancients (and thus, the Heresy Program). This would perfectly explain its preference for entering that form over all others, and why that form would be the hardest to attain.

Very similar thoughts have crossed my mind; specifically, that that dragon pup came about in exactly the same way as the baby dragon at the end of PDO, and would have been Lagi’s child and heir. Again, though, this would suggest that Lagi’s physical body died, just as Lundi said. The PDO baby dragon seemed to have had a phoenix birth; is it possible that exactly the same thing happened to Lagi, I wonder?

I’m also convinced that this is the case, and also the real reason for the very different “minus Heresy Program” dragon that we see in PDO. You’re forgetting, though, that players started PD1 as the Solo Wing / Blue Dragon, so I’m not quite sure that the “learning curve” thing is applicable. Certainly the Solo Wing is more powerful than any of the other Saga forms; but only because Team Andromeda gave it high stats to make it seem more powerful in comparison.

I still suspect that the game’s creators would have tweaked the storyline to incorporate the change between PD1 and Saga, too, and as a change of body between Zwei and PD1 is so heavily implied (as a necessary result of destroying a Tower,) it seems likely that they are expecting us to think in the same way regarding events between PD1 and Saga. After all, if the dragon’s body was exhausted from destroying one Tower, surely the implication is that the same thing would happen again? This would justify the change of body, and allow Team Andromeda their freedom of design.

9

I don’t believe so, no. While Lagi can obviously clone himself he couldn’t replicate his personality or transfer his consciousness to his clone (though I believe the ancients themselves could perform such a task). At best, he could create a new host dragon which would, of course, develop its own identity. The existence of the baby dragon can even be dismissed as a simple contingency plan: If Lagi was somehow destroyed a spare body would be convenient for the Heresy dragon to say the least.

A change of body was unnecessay IMO. Ending Panzer Dragoon Zwei as the Solo Wing dragon and beginning Panzer Dragoon as that self-same dragon is indicative of remaining in the same body. We can’t be certain Lundi was certain when he assumed Lagi had died (I’ll write more about this soon). Panzer Dragoon Zwei showed us the perils Lagi endured in order to become the Solo Wing dragon. We were shown how it reached its current state in Panzer Dragoon. Morphing into the Solo Wing dragon was the reason the Empire couldn’t even hope to stand against it.

Another noteworthy point is how the Panzer Dragoon Zwei primary endings convey that baby Lagi and the armoured blue dragon in Panzer Dragoon are the same dragon by overlapping specific moving images of them seen in both games:

http://www.panzerdragoon.net/theories/sky_rider_theory_12.jpg

And we know Lagi is the dragon in Panzer Dragoon Orta (because he narrates his own death in the Japanese version and he even resembles the coolia he once was). I’m more willing to believe Lagi hibernated until his presence was crucial (Lagi appears when the Empire endeavours to reawaken a Tower on more than one occassion but not before. Why?).

10

i think the baby dragons are cool. although it is always a mysterie as how the heck they got their…

11

I do agree with most of this: but my real point was that in PDO the baby dragon was only “born” after the death of the previous one (phoenix style). If the dragon could just make offspring at will under other circumstances, surely he would have done so repeatedly?

But, by the exact same reasoning, surely the change of body between PD1 and Saga is indicative of it returning in a different body? If nothing else, the evidence logically nullifies itself if you are to assume that the dragon could be the same one between games even if it did change form. The Saga form is clearly not an evolution of the Blue Dragon / Solo Wing, as that form is much higher on the new evolutionary ladder; and it is not a simple regression, because it (and the evolutions it makes) are not the same as anything seen in Zwei.

You have a good point, and the imagery used in the Zwei endings does indeed convey much. When you think about it, though, the things overlapped are not definitely the same things, rather they are equivalent things: We see Kyle overlapped with Lundi, showing that they are both dragon riders (whilst still being seperate people). We see Shellcoof overlapped with the PD1 Tower, showing that they are both Towers (whilst still being seperate structures). And we see what you have pointed out: Lagi overlapped with the Blue dragon, showing that they are both… well, dragons. (Whilst still being, I believe, seperate entities; having in common only the guidance of the Heresy Program).

12

I honestly don’t know anything about the differences between the two translations, but I don’t understand - how can Lagi narrate his own death? Surely that wouldn’t make sense at all? In the English version, of course, the narrator is meant to be anonymous / omnipotent; though (I believe) it has the same voice as the Heresy Program (credited as Sestren for reasons already covered). The dragon and the Heresy Program are clearly not the same thing, either, so that would make even less sense. What are the known facts regarding this whole translation issue?

Well, in regards to PD1, the implication seemed to be that the Empire only discoverd the Tower because of the fact that Sestren had activated it in an attempt to eliminate the dragon carrying the Heresy Program. (They detected the power it had started putting out, which led them to discover it.) In Saga, the dragon is evidently looking for an opportunity to get into Sestren by Azel opening the gateway, which she can only do if awakened and brought to the Tower; so those events seem to be quite well justified.

I don’t think I’ve raised this point before, but I may as well point it out: one of the main reasons why I’m so convinced about the whole “different dragons” theory is that we know from the games that the Heresy Program was capable of existing seperately from a body (confirmed at its beginning and end), of entering into a body, and of entering into a different body when that body died (the whole mutant Coolias thing). But what is there in the games to suggest that the dragon went into - or was even capable of - hibernation? Though I’d like the pleasant simplicity of the situation if it were unquestionably the same dragon throughout the series, things like this force me to wonder.

13

The dragon of PD Zwei ends up as the blue dragon. The dragon of PD starts as the blue dragon. Why should we think it’s a different dragon in those two games? If it is then how did the new dragon get to become the blue dragon? Did he meet a “Dragon baby” as well?
Also it’s obviously the same dragon in PD saga and PD Orta as well.
So the only part that I can see the possibility of different dragons is if the dragon died between PD1 and PD Saga. But I don’t see how or why that has to have happened…
It’s always the same dragon imo.
The Orta ending kind of confirms that with showing the “old” dragon’s death and talking about the new beginning. That WAS the dragon we always rode, that WAS our good old friend Lagi and now he’s dead…and it’s a sad moment…why would we get that kind of dramatic ending for him if it was just any random dragon?
To me that means that with the death of that dragon the “old” PD era ends. With the death of Lagi it’s all over and what will come next is going to be something whole new. Including a whole new dragon for the first time.
And the dragon was not always able to reproduce, my guess is that’s just a “defect” of the heresy program leaving the dragon and the dragon starting to “Return” to his animalistic roots since it was a baby coolia therefor gaining that ability as well… Heck even the heresy dragon could have altered his DNA in such a way as a “gift” to the one who helped him fullfill his purpose.
But in the end, Lagi in Orta is not just any dragon, he’s kind of a “natural” dragon (mutated or not) instead of an engineered dragon like he was when the heresy program was implanted within him…And the info we have about Dragons being unable to reproduce is meant for the engineered dragons since that’s the only thing that existed until that point.

14

If you’re not aware, Lundi wrote in his diary that the physical dragon died at the end of Zwei. That would of course indicate that it couldn’t be the same dragon in PD1. Lundi also stated that what we call the Heresy Program would return “in a new body”, further clarifying the situation.

Well, that was not necessary in Zwei if you recall. What I’m suggesting is that in the largely unknown events prior to PD1 - during which time the dragon acquired the Sky Rider and got involved with chasing the Dark Dragon - the Heresy Program evolved its new body in roughly the same way as in Zwei, culminating in the Blue Dragon form by the time the Sky Rider’s unknown adventure came to a close.

If destroying Shellcoof (a Tower) in Zwei was enough to completely exhaust and ruin the dragon’s body, then it seems likely that the same event in PD1 would have the same effect. This would also explain the weird change of form between games, which is otherwise not really justifed.

I suspect this to be the case, as like you said, the Ancients’ dragons (in fact, pretty much all of their creations) were incapable of reproduction. The Heresy Program was capable of mutation on a basic genetic level, so this definitely seems possible.

15

Still, he only assumed this would happen and was therefore not certain. I believe he was misinterpreting whatever it was that Lagi showed him. It’s possible he thought the baby dragon would be the new body for Lagi.

[quote=“Lance”]

Well, that was not necessary in Zwei if you recall. What I’m suggesting is that in the largely unknown events prior to PD1 - during which time the dragon acquired the Sky Rider and got involved with chasing the Dark Dragon - the Heresy Program evolved its new body in roughly the same way as in Zwei, culminating in the Blue Dragon form by the time the Sky Rider’s unknown adventure came to a close.[/quote]

From what we’ve seen, the dragon evolves through combat, adapting itself to the various battle situations. There should have been some records about dragon sightings before PD1 then. The reason why there’s not is because Lagi had only re-emerged recently, already in his Blue Dragon form from PD Zwei.

Shelcoof wasn’t destroyed like the PD1 Tower. There wasn’t a trace left from the PD1 tower, and Lagi was still alive after that as the footprints showed. I think this shows that Lagi had become a lot stronger than in PD Zwei.

I may be stating the obvious, but the dragon crests first seen in Saga was Lagi’s resting place then? It did show the D-Type 01 form which would be the form that Lagi had when he entered it.

16

Perhaps the need didn’t arise. The baby dragon found inside Shelcoof lends weight to the theory that Lagi can clone himself.

This is the only area of your theory that holds water because we have no answers capable of putting to rest all doubt other than those spawned by conjecture, I’m afriad.

If we know it’s the same dragon in all the games (as I’m sure was confirmed somewhere), then there must be a logical way around this stumbling block. If not, then the only explanation involves the Heresy dragon downloading itself into another mutant coolia and going through the painful process of growing up again, or somehow acquiring a fully grown dragon host, which defeats the purpose of using a coolia as a host in the first place. What would be the point when an easier, more convenient means is available? Remaining in the same body would serve as the most convenient way of ensuring its continued survival.

No one has a better understanding of the Zwei ending cinematics than me (if I do say so myself). Lundi and Kyle are overlapped so briefly the naked eye would hardly even notice (the overlapping fails to last even the briefest of seconds and therefore it’s safe to say wasn’t meant to mean anything). Images of baby Lagi and the armoured blue dragon in Panzer Dragoon, however, are overlapped for a period of time which is not only noticeable, but long enough to show both dragons crying out at the same time. If that isn’t suggestive of their true identity, I don’t know what is. We know Lagi morphes into the Solo Wing dragon, so how can they not be the same dragon in both body and soul? Shelcoof and the Tower are overlapped for the time it takes for both of them to explode in dazzling rays of light. The use of imagery draws parralells between the two as if their mutual destruction was related to each other and some greater purpose. The emphasis is placed on the destruction.

You’ve answered your own question: the narrator was changed because Lagi narrating his own death doesn’t make sense. Perhaps his thoughts were uploaded to a memory cell. :slight_smile:

No, according to the timeline, the Empire studied the Tower for four whole years before Sestren activated the Dark Dragon. The introduction sequence even states that the Empire unearthed an arsenal of deadly weapons from the Tower, but I have my doubts about the accuracy of the translation. Also, one of the Imperial Tower reports states that two dragons breached Imperial airspace not long after the Empire begun excavating the Tower. Either way, the Empire’s meddling was the sole reason for the Tower’s activation. We always knew the Towers weren’t completely shut down, which does explain the heightened energy levels the Empire detected north west of the capital as a prelude to the actual discovery of the Tower itself.

17

[quote=“D-Unit”]

Still, he only assumed this would happen and was therefore not certain.[/quote]

Yes, I’m sure Lundi was unsure himself.

Let’s take a look at some key moments in Panzer Dragoon Zwei’s primary endings:

http://www.panzerdragoon.net/extra_images/zwei_ending_image_01.jpg

First Lundi begins exploring Shelcoof, but his lengthy exploration is interupted upon beholding a huge coiling alien artifact in the distance. This image should be adequate for the task of showing us just how small Lundi is in comparison to the strange device he has discovered.

http://www.panzerdragoon.net/extra_images/zwei_ending_image_02.jpg

As the camera draws closer to the device hanging high on the wall, something familiar in turn draws our attention.

http://www.panzerdragoon.net/extra_images/zwei_ending_image_03.jpg

Now, the question is: is this Lagi, or some symbol of him? The fact that this crest will depict a different dragon depending on what dragon you completed the game with, I’d venture a guess and say it was Lagi himself. The dragon crest is certainly massive enough to house his body. At that height, how could Lundi conclude that Lagi had died when he could in fact be resting? From that distance, it would be hard to tell.

The moment Lundi beholds the dragon, he even exclaims “Lagi”, so there’s no room for doubt as to what he is seeing with his own two eyes.

18

Don’t forget that the Empire only learned of the PD1 dragon when it got pretty near their territory. The reason they had not noticed it sooner, and never knew anything about the Sky Rider, was because the dragon was coming out of the Frontier. The Frontier is called that because it is the edge of the Empire’s field of influence: as is stated, they have essentially no presence out there, so they wouldn’t know anything about the dragon while it was in that remote region or beyond. They clearly didn’t know anything about the Sky Rider anyway, while they knew much about Lundi, Kyle and Edge. There is the definite suggestion of significant unknown events surrounding the Blue Dragon, the Sky Rider, and how they got involved in chasing the Dark Dragon.

And, as I’ve pointed out, the obvious implication is that Lagi only emerged from the crest - as that baby dragon - in Panzer Dragoon Saga.

No-one would know if there was any trace left of the PD1 Tower, because if you remember, it was standing on the ocean floor with only its tip protruding above the waves. As the Empire apparently don’t have any kind of submarine technology, they would be totally unable to check out what remained deep beneath the water.

Remember also that when Azel absolutely annihilated the Tower of Uru through that complete meltdown, there was still some kind of ruin left behind. That looked a lot more thorough than what the dragon did in the previous games, so I very much doubt that it destroyed every atom of the Tower as you’re suggesting. A Shellcoof-like wreck presumably remained on the sea bed.

If anything, it seems that the PD1 dragon was an inferior creature to Lagi, too: it did not have the ability to perform berserk techniques, which he could do since the mere Hatchling form.

19

That tip of the Tower protruding from the seabed was massive though. The Imperial Tower report in Panzer Dragoon Saga states, “The only fact is the Tower is gone”, so the Empire managed to more or less confirm its disappearance.

If Lagi had flown into Shelcoof and detonated himself in the same manner he did with the Tower near the Imperial capital, I wonder if there would be any wreckage left to speak of.

20

I agree that this would make perfect sense if not for the fact that the body was stone-cold dead, which Lundi confirmed that it was. Really, why would Team Andromeda put that information into the game if they didn’t want us to think it was true?

The whole point of the diaries and records in Saga is to tie the events of the three games together. This isn’t obviously incorrect Imperial propoganda we’re talking about; it’s an account by someone who knew more about the dragon, the Towers and the nature of things than any other living human. Nothing else that Lundi says is literally wrong, so why would this be?

If we were meant to think that the dragon lived past Zwei, then why would this - the only detailed account we are given - say otherwise? Or if it was meant to be wrong, why is it not later confirmed as wrong, like for example the Empire’s biased ramblings?

I don’t mean in any way to sound rude by this Geoffrey, but if you don’t accept that as confirmation that the dragon died at the end of Zwei, then what would you accept? Nowhere in the four games does it say that the dragons are the same creature, but here it confirms that they are not. If the creators wanted us to believe otherwise, doesn’t it seem likely that they would have at least offered hard evidence for the alternative?

Again, I agree that it is very suggestive, and that is indeed the impression I got when I first saw this sequence back at the time of Zwei’s release. But we have been told that the later dragon is not Lagi, because Lagi died - whatever was left of him entered into that crest in Shellcoof, and evidently emerged only in Saga. The sequence would still make perfect sense even if these were both dragons guided by the Heresy Program, which it seems is what we are meant to believe.

On a side note, I strongly suspect that several plot details had not been decided upon or finalised by Team Andromeda at the time of Zwei. For instance, I very much doubt that the Heresy Program had been invented, and would guess that it was just written into the plot later on. I also suspect that the Sky Rider was meant to be Lundi at that stage in time, because as you have argued in one of your excellent theory write-ups, this is obviously the suggestion. So too is the idea that Lagi became the Blue Dragon.

However, these are only suggestions and interpretations; they are just imagery, not detailed facts. The things offered to us as facts are things like Lundi’s diaries and all those reports in Saga, and I admit that the plot of the previous games is expanded upon in these documents almost to the point of re-writing. However, I believe that they are meant to be the truth, and that is why they were even put into the game at all; to clarify and conclude the somewhat open-ended plotlines of the first two games. If this were not the case, things like Lundi’s diary would have been quite a waste of time, for both the game’s creators and us.

Everything is written for a reason; the reason for this information is clearly to tell us exactly what happened at the end of Zwei, which I don’t think anyone could be sure of from playing the first two games alone.