Sonic and the Secret Rings

[Solo_Wing]

However, comparing a company’s goal to make a profit (which is only a small part of the overall equation when talking about SF3, and yet it’s the only thing Geoffrey ever talks about) to a government’s lying and killing of innocents is mind boggling.

I believe Geoffrey has talked about a lot more than just SF3 not being translated… by reading his posts, it is pretty clear that he is upset about Sega’s treatment of the series in general since the SF3 fiasco and that is going to obviously influence his overall view of this.

The party in question’s actions are relative to the “crime” in question. Betraying thousands of loyal Shining Force fans is not too different from betraying millions of fellow human beings by invading their country. To a much lesser extent of course, but the similarities are there.

In both cases you have parties with a desire for power/money. If the US government simply seek to gain more oil and are prepared to sacrifice innocent people to obtain it, why can’t this be compared to Sega willing to sacrifice the Shining Force series and betray its fans by not translating SF3 and then turning it into a series of mainstream action games?

Sega have hurt a lot of loyal customers with their treatment of this series, and I have yet to see them do anything to prove that they still care about the SF fans who supported them in the Saturn days. It’s very sad that Sega cannot see past the black-and-white profit-is-the-only-thing-that-matters direction that the series is now going in.

[The_Ancient]

This whole issue relates very strongly to my take on the studio system morass. For instance, while cinema and Hollywood in particular are far from a creative utopia, marketing has a far less direct influence on box office revenue. Or at least the channels of marketing are far more balanced and mature, and of course cinema is such an ingrained cultural social activity that everyone will get several opinions from friends about a movie. But there’s still a more fundamental discrepancy, the people who are directly responsible for the creative side of production have much greater power and influence.

A perfect exception to prove the rule here is Will Wright. He has real power in EA, for one thing because his name itself sells games. In most cases it wont matter how well a designer/director’s previous game sold, if their name doesn’t give them power then they will still be subject to any clueless suit’s whims. Not saying that all suits are clueless, but the ones that aren’t are clearly in the minority.

It’s pretty much a joke in Hollywood, no one can ever truly predict why something becomes a hit. But there’s a reason certain directors and producers are so big, because they have proven they know how to make hits, and they don’t get fucked with when it counts. When the names of the prime creators carry real power, as the norm, things will change.

[Ehndow]

Actually, Psychonauts was more of a “lack of marketing” rather than “bad marketing.” Majesco was in financial trouble and didn’t have the ability to market the game. But, according to your logic, it shouldn’t have mattered. It was a great game and had lots of good word of mouth. Yet it has barely sold.

What the??I said bad marketing as opposed to competent marketing a.k.a unexistant marketing.It wasn’t competent cause it wasn’t there.But it didn’t need to be outstanding for it to sell.It just needed to be there to some degree.

I’m not contradicting myself.Marketing is important.What I meant was that it doesn’t need to be something you invest tons of money into in order to get some results.

Just like a CD.If it’s good music people are sure to like it.A producer is needed.If there is no producing (production?) you won’t have an album.But that doesn’t mean the producer is the most important factor.It just needs to be there.

Of course if you have an awesome producer (like Steven Wilson on Opeth’s latest albums) you’ll have a bigger impact for sure.But people need only to like the actual music.If producing (production? gah you get the pic) is bad people will still like the album tho cause the art is all there still.

My point was never that marketing didn’t affect sales.My point was always that if you have an outstanding product it will sell good regardless of other factors beeing outstandingly performed or not.I.e. marketing doesn’t need to be AAA for a game to sell good.

As for Myst I think you are talking about some of it’s later success.Right at the beginning there was no such marketing machine.

[Team_Andromeda]

Sega have hurt a lot of loyal customers with their treatment of this series, and I have yet to see them do anything to prove that they still care about the SF fans who supported them in the Saturn days. It’s very sad that Sega cannot see past the black-and-white profit-is-the-only-thing-that-matters direction that the series is now going in.

1st off I see no need to bring Politics into this argument , but if it was all about Oil the USA would have invaded the likes of Saudi , Nigeria long ago, never mind Iraq , Iraq is s much more about oil , and more to do with having a clueless Muppet in charge , that?s taken the so called fight on terror back years , but enough of that .

I agree SEGA Japan and America have kicked the Shinning fans in the teeth for years . SEGA Japan for using the term Force in the title (getting people hopes up) , when it the last Shiing game played nothing like a Force game,. And SOA for never translating the rest of Saturn Shining series along with Gradina , all thanks to a prick called Bernie , this at the hight of RPG mania in the West on the back of FF7 .

What a way to show the poor sods that did chose to buy a Saturn in the West , buy declaring open warfare on RPG’s and quirky 2D games (The Saturn strong point) with this ridiculous 5 star plan Which meant the likes of Grandia was a no no, but don?t worry there?s always the 5 start Courier Crisis , and just to make sure lets upset the one company that would have brought some of those games to the west for good measure . Brilliant ! what a way to show commitment to your own platform (by more or less telling people they need to buy a PS) and getting people ready for the DC, by abandoning your own platform , and making sure the game that did show of the Saturn remained for the most part Japanese only, and if that wasn?t enough SEGA Europe declares war on Import shops .

God , you couldn?t make it up , SEGA America/Europe were run by SONY muppets in those days , that semmed to be on mission to kill SEGA.
I could do time for the burk that thought the 32X was the future , or that French idiot in charge at SEGA Europe and love to waste on the money on football tops , while not making sure they was money to push the likes of Quake III, Shenmue, VT ect

Oh dear I’m going into a bit of a rant :(.

Anway I’m glad to SEGA West are such much better shape, but I would wish when SEGA looks at classic IP to update it takes care with the series and simple things like using the word ‘Force’ in the tile means a lot to the fans . I’m not a massive fan of the series , but why SEGA couldn’t just call Shinng EXA or somthing I do not know.

And why all the Shinning love (do they really sell that well in Japan) There’s loads of SEGA RPG’s or classic IP worth updating that SEGA seems to have turned thier back on . It baffles me at the lack of a Burning Rangers II , a update to SEGA GT or F335 ect

[Geoffrey]

[quote=“Abadd”]Geoffrey says that he’d rather have the land of fairies that I describe, and that’s just, as I mention earlier, naive. I would personally take the real world . Learn how it works and try to fix it within realistic limits. Hoping for magic to happen in the world will get nothing done. Wishing and hoping does nothing. You want to see things like Shining Force 3 make stateside? Let Sega concentrate on becoming profitable and growing as a company, then once they have the revenue to be able to support things like that, start to make some noise. Demanding that Sega make games that will likely not satisfy anyone but yourself will get nobody anywhere.

(Just as a side note - I am vehemently anti-war, have been against the war since day one, and am regularly active in politics. Having friends who are overseas in Iraq, it is a bit offensive to think that having been denied parts of Shining Force 3 is equatable to the injustices that have occurred in Iraq is simply absurd. Perhaps you were being hyperbolic, but come on now.)[/quote]

It all has the same root cause whether we want to admit it or not.

(My father was a peacekeepr in Northern Ireland, saw the war in the Falklands, and was a mercanery in Africa after which he returned a racist after the horrors he saw – like I said life is too short to make excuses. I don’t believe in it. The human condition is relevant to everything).

So is it really ok to import slave labor from China and India if it means cheaper products? People will discourage equal rights and non-subsistance level pay as long as it is more profitable for them. Whole governments are guilty of this. Even you cannot turn a blind eye to how deeply flawed it all is. I just can’t. I don’t care how people justify it. This will be the end of us all.

Realistically, what we see now will rise to boiling point sooner or later. We live in a world of suitcase nukes now, proving that something is fundamentally wrong.

Wishing and hoping? No. That’s not me anymore. Empowering the powerless takes a special brand of stubbornness that is the stuff most peoples’ nightmares are made of. It takes willpower. Most don’t have it. What is in control now is a cycle that few can break.

It’s not an absurd way of thinking when it all comes back to the same roots. If it only ever all boiled down to money, then the UK wouldn’t have a free health care system. Would you like to be left dying on a street somewhere just because you happened to be born into a poor family who couldn’t afford treatment only to have someone standing over your shaking body telling you that life is what we make of it? The illusion of meritocracy is not good enough to legitimise poverty.

It’s the same logic. Profits first. The future is actually coming close to a sci-fi story now. I hate to sound like Kadamose. It’s just that a genetically engineered super class of people is only a few decades away – the embodiment of a flawed mindset. Christ, if we want to think in extremes, then you could even argue that Hitler was right. The weak should die by the hands of the strong so that the strong can become stronger? Purify the species? It’s the same train of thought. More more more.

He who lives by the sword, dies by it. We can’t condone “greed” on one hand while condemning it on the other (if people want to believe that Iraq was all about oil when it was in fact a war to stabilise the Middle East so that the states could just buy the oil from a stable as opposed to unstable region of the world).

Peoples’ approach to many things in life is just flawed. This doesn’t even have to apply to SF3, but all businesses. Greed spurs their growth (investing little for greater returns) and it’s also their downfall without a sense of identity to guide it. I’m not naive enough to think that money isn’t the incentive, but that does not change even when companies are on top of everything. They are just in a position to take more risks.

I look back to when Nintendo dominated Japan and the states. How many RPGs did you see translated for the NES/SNES? Not many. They had a notoriously bad anti-RPG stance that even cost them Japan when the Ultra 64 was launched, and it was mostly thanks to the greedy corporate side of the company.

That is not what we should want. This isn’t me obssessing over one thing. The real world is going to hell my friend, and it’s taking everyone with it. Suitcase nukes don’t mix well with fatalism.

[Geoffrey]

Back on topic though…

This new Sonic is actually very good. Not everyone has played it yet, but Sega has finally (and I stress the finally) refined the sensation of speed, and that is at the heart of this. Maybe they can keep building on it.

Compare it to the next gen Sonic game which was released despite being poor in the hopes that it would ride on brand recognition. Now we can argue that lack of quality undermines the credibility of a brand which is perfectly valid. Nonetheless, the fact that this wasn’t foreseen is the real problem in urgent need of being solving. It should not have been released like that, and all the above questions can be used to justify why it was released so unfinished in the end.

[The_Ancient]

Hmm, I live in a nation where “gangs” typically exemplify all that is evil, yet “corporations” that are, in effect, required by law to operate without a conscience, epitomize the “good life”.

I’m not sure why I’m posting this, but I do agree with you Geoffrey, something has got to give, and it’s very near. I cling to some brand of hope, but that hope does not really exist on an intellectual level.

[Solo_Wing]

Team Andromeda: Just want to clear something up… My references to politics earlier were mainly used as a continuation of Geoffrey and Abadd’s posts and were by no means meant to come across as indisputable fact, I was just using a common theory as an example, and looking back now it didn’t come out as well as I meant it. So, my apologies for that.
The main point I was trying to get across was about Shining Force - I feel the treatment of the series is an injustice to its fans (the people the games are made for), just as war is often an injustice to human beings (the people who governments are supposed to protect).

But anyway… I’m looking forward to giving Sonic and the Secret Rings a try in the coming weeks. If Sega has delivered a game that really is all about speed and blasting through levels then it’s quite possible we may have a winning formula here.

[Team_Andromeda]

[quote=“Solo Wing Dragon”]Team Andromeda: Just want to clear something up… My references to politics earlier were mainly used as a continuation of Geoffrey and Abadd’s posts and were by no means meant to come across as indisputable fact, I was just using a common theory as an example, and looking back now it didn’t come out as well as I meant it. So, my apologies for that.
The main point I was trying to get across was about Shining Force - I feel the treatment of the series is an injustice to its fans (the people the games are made for), just as war is often an injustice to human beings (the people who governments are supposed to protect).

But anyway… I’m looking forward to giving Sonic and the Secret Rings a try in the coming weeks. If Sega has delivered a game that really is all about speed and blasting through levels then it’s quite possible we may have a winning formula here.[/quote]

I don?t think you have anything to say sorry about, just that I feel one can?t really compare the shit in the world to the games industry.

I?m with on the treatment of the Shining series in general , but a lot of that stems from the Saturn days , and the use of the world ? Force ? in some of the new titles (which in their own right seem nice) . I can?t help but feel that to many ,they?ll never be happy until Camelot work on the series again

Back to SONIC I wish SEGA would now port a improved version of Secret of The Rights to the 360 and PS3, to make up for the mess of the game that 360 and PS3 users got and plaid more of the pleasure while they were at it. I hope the Wii Sonic Team are put to work onthe next Sonic game for all systems

[Geoffrey]

[quote=“Heretic Agnostic”]Hmm, I live in a nation where “gangs” typically exemplify all that is evil, yet “corporations” that are, in effect, required by law to operate without a conscience, epitomize the “good life”.

I’m not sure why I’m posting this, but I do agree with you Geoffrey, something has got to give, and it’s very near. I cling to some brand of hope, but that hope does not really exist on an intellectual level.[/quote]

I can’t help but feeling that in life some things should be done just because they are the right things to do. It’s a matter of integrity. Shareholders just want to see growth and stability. Their outlook does not change no matter how rich they become. They just explore new avenues to keep everything growing and stabilised.

Maybe I shouldn’t drag real world issues into gaming but when greenhouse gas emissions from excess pollution are arguably killing the planet by heating it up to melting point all because no one wants to slow down their growing economies, it’s hard to ignore it all.

It’s the symptom of a deeper problem. I just don’t see this ending well. I always loved what Kurt Cobain said about not knowing what weapons will be used in World War III but knowing that World War IV would be fought with sticks and stones. Maybe we can’t help walking down a path of self-destruction.

Now let’s look back to how Atari crashed the games industry with sub-par crap they thought would sell. LMAO.

[Geoffrey]

Back to SONIC I wish SEGA would now port a improved version of Secret of The Rights to the 360 and PS3, to make up for the mess of the game that 360 and PS3 users got and plaid more of the pleasure while they were at it. I hope the Wii Sonic Team are put to work onthe next Sonic game for all systems

Just doing the job properly next time would make up for it. It can be justified both financially (to ensure the trustworthiness of the brand) and artistically (ensuring an enjoyable experience).

I still have fond memories of when Sonic 2 was released. Everyone adored the game, but complained that it was way too easy. So what did Sega do? They kept all the speed while requiring players to put more thought into jumping the many hurdles in the next games.

I still wonder how many people rang Sega asking how to pass through that bouncing barrel puzzle in the Carnival Night Zone in Sonic 3. People even thought it was a screw up in level design that made it into the final release (which would have meant the game could not have been completed).

[Team_Andromeda]

[quote=“Geoffrey Duke”]

Back to SONIC I wish SEGA would now port a improved version of Secret of The Rights to the 360 and PS3, to make up for the mess of the game that 360 and PS3 users got and plaid more of the pleasure while they were at it. I hope the Wii Sonic Team are put to work onthe next Sonic game for all systems

Just doing the job properly next time would make up for it. It can be justified both financially (to ensure the trustworthiness of the brand) and artistically (ensuring an enjoyable experience).
.[/quote]

Tell me about it, All I ever wanted was a SONIC game bulit around him and his speed and that’s it . None of this 40 hrs game rubbish with mutli characters to please the IGN fancub (casual losers) . Why after getting verything so right with Sonic Adv , SEGA gets everything so wrong since ??? . Its Depressing and worrying to see the sad state of SONIC , He used to mean something just a few years ago. Where not just games players, but other Software houses used to look up and admire the Sonic Team and Sonic, Those days seem like bloody years ago .

It is too much to ask to have a SONIC game where he is the main focus, I don?t buy a SONIC game to play as someone else (that flawed idea killed MGS II stone dead) I want to play as SONIC running through massive cork screw , roller coaster like environments with a thumbing rock and techno soundtrack blasting in the backround . If SEGA can?t the Sonic parts right, what’s is the point and what chance have they got of getting these pointless Amy, Or Knuckles stages right .

It makes me sick , because I can see the promise even in the mess that is the 360 version . SEGA and Sonic Team are so much better than this . But I tell you this much the fans can say that SEGA is on its way back and got a great line up,. But all the casuals and all the press will just focus on SONIC as proof that SEGA is dead and all the talent is gone

[Goonboy_Panzer]

[quote=“Geoffrey Duke”]

I’m also sick that Sega continues to release atrocities running around with the Shining name but refuses to translate the last two chapters of Shining Force III.

The Neo games have sold well in Japan though which seems to reinforce the notion that trend jumping works.

However, Sega not taking Camelot’s offer to port SF III to a portable platform by converting it into 2D to make the game marketable in this day and age, thus giving them an excuse to translate the whole trilogy is just inexcusable.

It’s one of those injustices that will never be set right. Maybe if we lived in a perfect world people would jump at the chance to translate more games for more people to enjoy.

I suspect that a new Nights is on the way for the Wii. Golden Axe is being resurrected from the dead, so not all hope is lost. Please include the original arcade games in the newest incarnation Sega, not the Genesis/Mega Drive conversion and psuedo-sequels!

Actually Abadd, you ask them. Use the Force to persuade them like I know you can.[/quote]

But how do you know thery haven’t taken them on their offer? When that interview took place sega was already moving away from GBA to the NDS and now they’ve basically scrapped PSP development to focus on the NDS soley at least in japan where a few PSP franchises have their NDS installements nearly finished. Any handheld SHINING game will either appear on the NDS or a mobile phone platform or the next Gameboy succesor. Whatever the outcome we shall know by the end of this year.

[Pedro_The_Hutt]

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]
It is too much to ask to have a SONIC game where he is the main focus, I don?t buy a SONIC game to play as someone else (that flawed idea killed MGS II stone dead) I want to play as SONIC running through massive cork screw , roller coaster like environments with a thumbing rock and techno soundtrack blasting in the backround . If SEGA can?t the Sonic parts right, what’s is the point and what chance have they got of getting these pointless Amy, Or Knuckles stages right .[/quote]

I dunno about that, one of the main things I liked about Sonic 3 & Knuckles was the ability to go through the same levels in three different ways, depending on which character you were, they should utilise this idea again, same levels, same objectives, different ways to going about it depending on who you are. (And of course just Sonic, Tails & Knuckles, no need for Amy or Big the Cat anymore really… not that I disliked Big’s part of Sonic Adventure, but I think that only works as a one off)

[dragoon_lover]

Sonic 3 rocked and all, especially with the ability to save and the introduction of the hyper emeralds in Knuckles. But Sonic 2 was just so utterly sublime. Best ending in a Sonic game I ever saw.