Gehn, I mean the last time you said something about the color sensibility in Orta, another topic. But again that’s my point, no one can come up with very objective arguments for why Orta is not panzerish…
Well if you are so dimissive then I guess there is no way to convince you 
Not that I think that I can.I honestly don’t remember such a topic.If you do remember please tell me cause I would very much like to read it in order to properly reply.
The fact you can explain the reasoning behind some artistic choices doesn’t mean those choices are good or fit the Panzer Dragoon theme as we knew it prior to Orta. You said you were surprised when you saw that boss, but then understood what they tried to do with it. I can understand it too, however that doesn’t help make me any less “surprised” by it and the surprise wasn’t a pleasant one for me.
Not to mention it’s “off” even by Orta’s standards as I don’t think we see similar imperial statues like that anywhere else. What, they only have one tribute and the style is not shared by anything else they created?
Anyway, you are saying people don’t bring objective arguments about why something doesn’t fit in but you aren’t bringing any real arguments about why it does fit in either. As I said above, giving a possible explanation for the decision to include or make something different isn’t “proving” that it really fits the PD theme as with that logic they could introduce pretty much anything as long as one could somehow think of a reason for it.
You are asking too much anyway. Most people here haven’t done a major on art and the complexity of the creations seen in the games can’t be simply explained as if we have a triangle, a cube, a trapezoid and a circle and you ask of us to explain why we feel the circle is odd.
As for saying they had two choices for the story, I’m sorry but they had near unlimited choice on what to make given the scope of the PD world. A Zwei tribute would be just as good service to fans as long as the cut scenes were well written. It’s not like that style of narration means you CAN’T have more story, they could put as much or as little as they wanted. Of course with the result we got in Orta, the less they tried to put in the better it would probably appear to us. Heck even Orta’s story would probably appear better if we had a simpler version of it narrated to us instead of seeing all the - bad for some - details in front of us. But they really didn’t have to make such a direct Saga continuation to please the fans.
And yes, many of us can name things that do fit in with previous Panzer titles, such as the box game imperial story episodes or some of the pure type monsters shown or even the glide wing which I agree does look Saga-ish in some ways. Still, there are many things that to me don’t look like they fit in and the inclusion of a few things I like doesn’t make up for the many things I don’t find faithful.
If you are different and enjoy the game, that’s great for you, I don’t feel the same though.
I will this semester 
But you have a good point there Al3xand3r. I just think that one of the major good points of the old saturn games were the 8compared to todays standards9 inferior grafics. they hinted more then they actually showed and let more room for imagination. on the other hand I believe that only tight borders can produce true brilliance and the xbox maybe gave the designers to much pover to really reconsider their design choices.
A Zwei tribute would be just as good service to fans… of Zwei certainly. But since the majority of hate for Orta is from primarily Saga fans the result would have been the same, that was my point. But I really respect your post there Al3xand3r, for the most part you’re in line with what I’ve been saying anyway. People are entitled to their opinions.
And I agree that my explanation for the Emperor Statue doesn’t make it any more panzerish, but the fact there is a clear rationale behind it means it was not an arbitrary or frivolous betrayal of the style of the games, but something grounded in the overall attention to details that is a part of why we love these games so much in the first place. If someone can come up with a credible anecdote about that statue being designed by a new artist without much feedback or something then OK… but for all I, or anyone else know it could have been the same person who created the original dragon or Azel.
Your second paragraph is really stretching for that argument though Al3x, what other part of the Empire’s presence do we ever see where such ostentation would be expected?
And I’m not ever asking for anything, I simply respond when people volunteer their opinions in the form of arguments that aren’t very defensible. I don’t think Orta’s style is quite as consistent as any of the Saturn games either, but to trash it wholesale is a kind of bigotry, the love and attention that the game still exhibits is absolutely deserving of the Panzer Dragoon name.
And Gehn it was that “Why did Lagi die” topic in Seeker’s Stronglhold. It’s at the bottom of page two right now.
[quote=“Arcie”]
, whatsoever. Smilebit fucked up - BIG TIME.
You need to SERIOUSLY improve your character observation skills, as well as your ability to accept new ideas.
As a character, Orta was kept in captivity from an early age by the Seekers, who believed that the existance of Drones only brought about destruction (although how this managed to happen after Gash’s involvement with Azel is beyond me). As such, Orta did not have a balanced life-style in the way of other such characters; until the dragonmares hit the village, Orta had only ever known the walls of her cell, and neither of her parents. In any character, fictional or otherwise, this will not help their development in social skills and so forth. Doing anything differently would effectively ignore her troubled early life.
No empathy? Braindead? In that case, why does Orta feel remorse after defeating the Chapter 5 boss? “You had children…I’m sorry.” When Abadd then nukes said creature, she demands to know why he did it. Abadd’s reply that she is weak is one of the many moments in the game whereby the player is reminded that, whilst both Orta and Abadd are drones, there is a world of difference between their two personalities. Also of note is the cutscene between Episodes 3 and 4, where Orta and Ponta discuss Orta’s origins and past.
The only discernible difference other than the gender of the Dragon Riders I can tell between Orta and co. is that Orta’s journey is not of vengeance and has no ultimate destination. In PD, Kyle sees the Sky Rider shot by the Dark Dragon, and is told to stop DD reaching the Tower at all costs. Zwei sees Lundi seek revenge for his people who were destroyed by Shelcoof. Saga sees Edge initially seek to take down Craymen and the Empire, before being enrolled into the Seekers’ anti-Sestren crusade.
Orta’s ride has no initial cause for revenge and no pre-planned destination: she leaves the village to follow Abadd, gets waylayed by Mobo, meets Abadd again after Chapter 5, meets her mom at the end of Chapter 7 and is then, FINALLY, on the warpath against Abadd’s world-conquering schemes. It can be argued that a character without aim is a weak character, but this is not
always the case as postmodernist literature makes clear.[/quote]
Using the term ‘braindead zombie’ is just another way of refering to a completely uninteresting, one-sided person. And that’s precisely what Orta was - she fell into the ‘woe is me’ trap and never escaped.
While the same can probably be said about Edge, the difference between Edge and Orta is that Edge displayed massive amounts of emotion to the point of over-dramatization - the fact that Edge originally starts out on a quest of revenge and never truly fell into the ‘save the world’ cliche, but ends up unintentionally sacrificing himself anyway, makes him an extremely likeable character.
I read in a review somewhere, long ago, that the most incredible thing about the PD universe, especially PDS, is that no one truly wears their intentions and motivations like nametags…and I couldn’t agree more. PDO, on the other hand, was entirely predictable - and that’s part of the problem.
No one wears their intentions like a name tag? Not even Vaiman? Or Anjou? The Emperor?
Of the more central characters in Saga, there are no simple good guys or bad guys that is certain. But everyone’s motivations are somewhat irrelevant in the end, there is only one real hero, the Dragon. Everyone else ends up playing the part needed for it to fulfill it’s own intention.
Orta could never be the same because Orta is the actual hero of the game. Even then, I don’t see your point since Orta has no defined intentions except those she finds along her journey, her motivations are simply survival and discovery. I fail to see how that name tag speaks any louder than Lundi, Keil or Edge’s. shrug
yeah… sorry to be off-topic (well… on topic)
[quote=“Arcie”]Wait.
Wait wait wait wait wait wait.
This is ACTUALLY HAPPENING!?!?!?!
There is actually OFFICIALLY a NiGHTS sequel?[/quote]
yeah it hasn’t sunk in for me either yet =S
[quote=“Heretic Agnostic”]No one wears their intentions like a name tag? Not even Vaiman? Or Anjou? The Emperor?
Of the more central characters in Saga, there are no simple good guys or bad guys that is certain. But everyone’s motivations are somewhat irrelevant in the end, there is only one real hero, the Dragon. Everyone else ends up playing the part needed for it to fulfill it’s own intention.
Orta could never be the same because Orta is the actual hero of the game. Even then, I don’t see your point since Orta has no defined intentions except those she finds along her journey, her motivations are simply survival and discovery. I fail to see how that name tag speaks any louder than Lundi, Keil or Edge’s. shrug[/quote]
The main point is: Orta lacks refinement compared to Zwei and Saga. If the game would have been more refined - refinement being the key word here - it probably wouldn’t have been such a disappointment. But Sega, and every other company in the past ten years, have proven, time and time again, that refinement is no longer in their vocabularly. With that said, Orta was doomed to be a failure from the start.
You go on about this ’ refinement ’ and how Orta doesn’t follow the series only to then ask for a RPG to be made around Azel . Well inthe Saturn games there was a new hero and a new dragon for the games, So on that front Orta keeps faith to the series 
and better than that , goes back to the true routes of the series and makes it a 3D shooter how’s that for 'refinement ’ :)
And just ‘you’ don’t like Orta does not mean its the same for everybody . Sure I’m not happy with all of the story or Art used in Orta , but then to me all the art in Zwei and Saga wasn’t as good as that seen inthe 1st game (Especially true on the design of the bosses).
And the story while i of coruse mporant as never been a major issue to me inthe series (bar Saga) to point of not liking the game even if it played well . As for a start I played the 1st two Panzer games in Japanese , and even with Arrival of Saga and me then needing to get the 1st 2 game in English . The story was a bit confusingand for every part of the story I got, they were many more parts I never got and still don’t .Bit of a trademark of the series for every question answered , there?s for more left answered.
To me and I accept this just my view , I want a Panzer game to have the trademarks as I seen them. I.e, a unique and almost organic game world , beautiful water effects (for me the real trademark), great music scores and intro, all wrapped in a great shooter and best of all the impression that?s its just you and your Dragoon against the whole world and the belief that the Dragoon would do anything for you, and offer its life to you, just like my beloved Staffordshire bulldog would have done for me :).
On those fronts ORTA delivers, and I?ve not played many better 3D shooters than Orta and to implement the boss system from Saga into a real time shooter and make it work so well, was a work of abloute genius and it pisses me off that the Team never seem to get credit for stuff like that . And what I also like about Orta was it brought back the strange Huge bosses from the 1st game .
I can’t believe Nights 2 is a reality! Good thing I have a Wii. The game looks pretty good so far…We’ll just have to wait and see.
And on a personal note: SEGA needs to stop making Sonic games, they are really going downhill (Are they ever going to get the awkward camera and controls right, or are they just retarded?). The last great sonic game I can remember was Sonic CD. It would be awesome if they remade that game, with the soundtrack intact, and some new anime style animation.
As far as Orta goes, I’m at the mixed bag stage. It had it’s strong points as well as week points, like all of you pointed out. I was even angered when the title screen came up and there was no music. I think one of it’s strong points was it’s overall atmosphere. The music was wonderful, in my opinion. and the story was sub-par at best. Now the gameplay was amazing when comparing it to PD, and PDZ. Different elements were taken from each game, improved upon with added additions that really improved the control we had over the dragon. Well that’s my two cents.
[quote=“Team Andromeda”]
You go on about this ’ refinement ’ and how Orta doesn’t follow the series only to then ask for a RPG to be made around Azel . Well inthe Saturn games there was a new hero and a new dragon for the games, So on that front Orta keeps faith to the series and better than that , goes back to the true routes of the series and makes it a 3D shooter how’s that for 'refinement ’ :)
And just ‘you’ don’t like Orta does not mean its the same for everybody . Sure I’m not happy with all of the story or Art used in Orta , but then to me all the art in Zwei and Saga wasn’t as good as that seen inthe 1st game (Especially true on the design of the bosses).
And the story while i of coruse mporant as never been a major issue to me inthe series (bar Saga) to point of not liking the game even if it played well . As for a start I played the 1st two Panzer games in Japanese , and even with Arrival of Saga and me then needing to get the 1st 2 game in English . The story was a bit confusingand for every part of the story I got, they were many more parts I never got and still don’t .Bit of a trademark of the series for every question answered , there?s for more left answered.
To me and I accept this just my view , I want a Panzer game to have the trademarks as I seen them. I.e, a unique and almost organic game world , beautiful water effects (for me the real trademark), great music scores and intro, all wrapped in a great shooter and best of all the impression that?s its just you and your Dragoon against the whole world and the belief that the Dragoon would do anything for you, and offer its life to you, just like my beloved Staffordshire bulldog would have done for me :).
On those fronts ORTA delivers, and I?ve not played many better 3D shooters than Orta and to implement the boss system from Saga into a real time shooter and make it work so well, was a work of abloute genius and it pisses me off that the Team never seem to get credit for stuff like that . And what I also like about Orta was it brought back the strange Huge bosses from the 1st game .[/quote]
Panzeer Dragoon Eins and Panzer Dragoon Zwei were both very abstract and were never meant to answer anything - they just merely set the stage for what was to come. Panzer Dragoon Saga not only answered everything that the first two games did not, but also introduced many more questions that needed to be answered; this is a sign of very good storytelling. Unfortunately, Orta’s story did not answer anything, nor did it offer any new insights into the PD universe - and before you say that’s because it’s like the first two games, you’ll need to remember that Orta is not abstract like its predecessors (at least, not of the same caliber anyway); therefore, it does not live up to the standards that the trilogy created.
Yes, the gameplay mechanics were improved almost to the point of perfection, but the other areas of the game were severely lacking. One of the main bitches I have about the game is that the environments do not make me feel like I am in another devastated, alien world - Panzer Dragoon has ALWAYS been about atmosphere (you could almost say that it is the series’ trademark), and, unfortunately, Orta didn’t have that. The atmosphere in Orta was generic all the way down to its core. The fact the bone-like, ancient structures were missing from the game (and those that were present, specifically the underground Tower, didn’t even remotely look like the original bone structures) and the fact that the Sestren cicruit looked like a bland, virtual reality spider web, instead of a hypnotic, psychodelic mixture of technocolor, was enough to make me hate the game. There are too many inconsistencies with the game; therefore, I will never consider PDO the true successor to the trilogy - not now; not ever.
Orta answers many questions, you just reject those answers.
The background colors in Sestren are pretty much the same, the fact there’s actually structure in the foreground in Orta does not somehow negate that, except in your highly selective memory apparently.
Half of the discussion that takes place on this site is based on information from Orta, with many new insights coming directly from the story and Encyclopedia.
I thought Yellico Valley captured the atmosphere of the first game almost perfectly, The Fallen Ground and Eternal Glacies in particular look just like many of the paintings shown at the end of Eins and Zwei.
And the inside of the ancient structure looks almost exactly like the inside of the Tower of Uru. Just because it doesn’t look like certain other ancient structures does not make it inconsistent either.
And as you say, Orta is simply a different game than any of the others. Different =/= failure.
[quote=“Heretic Agnostic”]Orta answers many questions, you just reject those answers.
The background colors in Sestren are pretty much the same, the fact there’s actually structure in the foreground in Orta does not somehow negate that, except in your highly selective memory apparently.
Half of the discussion that takes place on this site is based on information from Orta, with many new insights coming directly from the story and Encyclopedia.
I thought Yellico Valley captured the atmosphere of the first game almost perfectly, The Fallen Ground and Eternal Glacies in particular look just like many of the paintings shown at the end of Eins and Zwei.
And the inside of the ancient structure looks almost exactly like the inside of the Tower of Uru. Just because it doesn’t look like certain other ancient structures does not make it inconsistent either.
And as you say, Orta is simply a different game than any of the others. Different =/= failure.[/quote]
I’m quite sure that Iva’s scenario and the absolutely fantastic Encyclopedia were added in MUCH later - probably at the very end of the game’s development. It’s quite unfortunate that these are the only things which truly represent the brilliance of the trilogy.
And no, the underground Tower doesn’t even look like the structures from the other games - the bone-like structures always have cool looking, random black lines going through the center of each structure - the structures in the underground Tower all looked the same with no individuality to them at all - this just means that a different artist drew them…and that fact sucks.
I understand that, at the end of the day, judgment is based entirely on taste, alone. Orta just simply isn’t my taste - period.
Hey I like PS3 but I think Nights looks great I just can’t find it anywhere. Then again I never owned a PS1…
What you’re implying is that all PS3 players are shallow minded. That’s like saying all black people are gang bangers. People think that all Nintendo fans are a bunch of nerds but you and I both know that isn’t true.
Dunno what my point is exactly but that comment bugged me.
I would have preffered naming along the lines of Christmas Nights into Dreams… Ie, keep the original title intact and add a new word at the start. Still it’s nice enough I guess. Need a gameplay trailer now
There is a God. Now I gotta hope that this will be any good. I hope they keep it as 3D on 2D tracks instead of full 3D.
[quote=“Parn”]Back on the subject of the NiGHTS sequel, Takashi Iizuka is directing. He was the lead game designer for the original NiGHTS. Before you breathe a sigh of relief, he is currently head of Sonic Team USA and directed Sonic Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog.
I fear the worst, but hope for the best. Only time will tell![/quote]
Perhaps he simply didn’t “get” Sonic. It’s quite possible for someone to make good games for one franchise, and not so great/poor games for another. Saying that, I will be approaching this with a healthy amount of skepticism too.
Journey of Dreams looks great so far though!
Remember, he also did Sonic Adventure which, I believe, is generally considered the best 3D Sonic.