Panzer Dragoon Saga and Zwei prototypes

now attempting swap trick :slight_smile:

downloading now via torrent…thanks to everyone who donated!

[quote=“Chizzles”]Swap trick is for n00bz!!!11

home.clara.net/robwebb/shop/ sells Saturn chips for ?13 :stuck_out_tongue:

try one![/quote]

Not compatible with mine. :anjou_disappointment:

Has anyone had a chance to try the other prototypes yet?

The prototype disc 4 seems to load the savegames from the retail game just fine, and interestingly it’s a version with English subtitles. Even though some ingame translations are corrupted, it seems it’s a more literal translation from the original versions. More surprisingly it also seems to be more accurate at times than the final translation. Even though my knowledge of Japanese is very limited, I still noticed at times that the characters in PD Saga were saying something completely different from what the subtitles were showing. The prototype actually has the correct translation for at least some of those inaccuracies.

For example there’s the cinematic where Azel stays behind in the Tower of Uru when Edge goes to fight Sestren, the translation is mostly identical in both versions except for this part:

Original version

[quote]Azel:When you leave for Sestren, I will destroy this Tower. Sestren will not be able to escape.
EdgeI won’t let you. Azel, what will happen to you?
AzelI am… the only one… that can destroy the Tower.[/quote]

Prototype

[quote]Azel: When you leave for Sestren, I will destroy this Tower. Then they can escape safely too.
Edge: I won’t let you. …What will happen to you, Azel?
Azel: I do not know, but I will be okay… It is not that I will
die…[/quote]

Notice how the latter translation makes a lot more sense, while the translation for the final version completely changes the meaning of certain lines. The in-game subtitles seem to be different as well, although certain subtitles are corrupted in the prototype. Another example:

Original

[quote]Impurity detected… Pursue at once… Impurity located… Activate Shelcoof…
Too many mutants are born these days.
Impurity near, eliminate it… Impurity reacquired… Eliminate it once more…
…Activation of D Type 01… confirmed…[/quote]

Prototype

[quote]Error… delete failure… Pursue at once… Point confirmed… Activate Shelcoof
Too many mutants are born these days.
Sealing of an error, verified… Revival of the error, verified… Seal it once more…
…Activation of D Type 01, confirmed…[/quote]

The protoype seems to have a more literal translation here and although there’s not much difference between the two versions, the “Sealing of an error, verified” part in the prototype seems to be more accurate since it explains the “eliminate/seal it once more” part later on.

Original version

[quote]Now, it shall end…
This voice… the dragon!?
The will of the ancients… It is now with me… The Divine Visitor must destroy me. …That is why I have returned.[/quote]

Prototype

[quote]Now, it shall end…
This voice… the dragon!?
The ancient ruins, Everything is now with me… Now, kill me, ‘Absolute Guest’. …That is why I have returned.[/quote]

Again a more literal translation in the prototype. Not necessarily better, but “The ancient ruins, Everything is now with me” implies that the Heresy Program was controlling the tower network and destroying it would deactivate the ruins. The final translation is more cryptic, referring to “the Will of the Ancients” instead of simply “the ancient ruins”.

Very interesting… nice find, D-Unit.

Some responses below:

[quote=“D-Unit”]Original version

:When you leave for Sestren, I will destroy this Tower. Sestren will not be able to escape.
EdgeI won’t let you. Azel, what will happen to you?
AzelI am… the only one… that can destroy the Tower.

Prototype

: When you leave for Sestren, I will destroy this Tower. Then they can escape safely too.
Edge: I won’t let you. …What will happen to you, Azel?
Azel: I do not know, but I will be okay… It is not that I will
die…

Notice how the latter translation makes a lot more sense, while the translation for the final version completely changes the meaning of certain lines. The in-game subtitles seem to be different as well, although certain subtitles are corrupted in the prototype.[/quote]

In some ways the prototype translation makes more sense, but in other ways it doesn’t. What does she mean by “Then they can escape safely too.” They, being the Seekers?

Also, the last line “I do not know, but I will be okay… It is not that I will
die…” is much more informative, however it is less dramatic than “I am… the only one… that can destroy the Tower.” I always thought this was Azel ignoring Edge’s question because she thought that she was going to die when the Tower was destroyed, or at least wasn’t sure… it was her way of saying “I’m going to sacrifice myself by destroying myself and the Tower so that Sestren cannot escape through this gate”.

[quote=“D-Unit”]Another example:

Original

[quote]Error… delete failure… Pursue at once… Point confirmed… Activate Shelcoof
Too many mutants are born these days.
Sealing of an error, verified… Revival of the error, verified… Seal it once more…
…Activation of D Type 01, confirmed…[/quote]

Prototype

[quote]Impurity detected… Pursue at once… Impurity located… Activate Shelcoof…
Too many mutants are born these days.
Impurity near, eliminate it… Impurity reacquired… Eliminate it once more…
…Activation of D Type 01… confirmed…[/quote]

The protoype seems to have a more literal translation here and although there’s not much difference between the two versions, the “Sealing of an error, verified” part in the prototype seems to be more accurate since it explains the “eliminate/seal it once more” part later on.[/quote]

I don’t remember that line in the original… do you have the prototype and original around the wrong way here by any chance?

[quote=“D-Unit”]Original version

[quote]Now, it shall end…
This voice… the dragon!?
The will of the ancients… It is now with me… The Divine Visitor must destroy me. …That is why I have returned.[/quote]

Prototype

[quote]Now, it shall end…
This voice… the dragon!?
The ancient ruins, Everything is now with me… Now, kill me, ‘Absolute Guest’. …That is why I have returned.[/quote]

Again a more literal translation in the prototype. Not necessarily better, but “The ancient ruins, Everything is now with me” implies that the Heresy Program was controlling the tower network and destroying it would deactivate the ruins. The final translation is more cryptic, referring to “the Will of the Ancients” instead of simply “the ancient ruins”.[/quote]

The prototype is definitely more informative here, although I think I like the final game’s translation better. It’s good evidence that the Heresy Program essentially took Sestren’s job, although it makes the continuation of the Heresy Program’s story in PD Orta look a bit weak if the Divine Visitor effectively killed him by pushing the button. I wonder if the Japanese version mentions this?

Yes, “they” would have to be the Seekers. I remember the part about Sestren escaping was debated on this forum before since it didn’t make much sense, and for good reason.

Still, I don’t see why they would need to alter the original meaning of the words just for the sake of making things a bit more dramatic. Change the meaning enough and you might as well be reading a fanfic instead of the original work.

Yes I did, I’ll edit my previous post to correct that.

The Heresy Program’s story didn’t continue in PD Orta, that was just the dragon. The encounter with the Heresy Program in PD Orta was most likely a recording, showing how the dragon separated from the Heresy Program at the end of PD Saga.

Gah, the cables I’ve purchased don’t do the job. Looks like it’ll be a bit longer before I can record the prototypes.

Well, what are you trying to record them to?

Easiest way would be either, have the Saturn directly linked to your capture card or record it to DVD then rip it to the PC using the DVD drive.

I have a Blackmagic Intensity Pro. This has composite inputs, and I have the following set up:

Saturn > Saturn SCART cable > SCART female to female coupler > SCART to composite cable > Intensity Pro

And it doesn’t work. I’ve tried all the settings on the Intensity, and the cables aren’t faulty as I’ve tested them with other equipment. It has to be a signal incompatibility issue. It’s the default SCART cable that came with the Saturn… what output is that? (RGB / composite / s-video?)

THe SCART that comes with the Saturn is RGB + Composite.

It could be an incompatability with the resolution, Panzer Dragoon Saga ouputs at 240p mode, some capture cards refuse to recognise it.

Hmm. Quite possibly. But my Dreamcast and VHS recorder don’t work via the same method either.

The Dreamcast’s SCART is RGB and Sync only with no composite, are you using an RGB Scart with the Dreamcast?

As for the VHS, that is bizarre indeed…

I’m using the official SCART cable, which I believe is RGB. I thought my set up would pass through the signal adequately, as Blackmagic have told me that the card accepts RGB signal inputs.

Perhaps; this is the sort of dialogue that can be interpreted many ways. I just wonder why Azel would have needed to destroy the Tower, if not to prevent Sestren from coming out of the gate that she had just opened? What was the significance of destroying that Tower, when Sestren itself was about to be destroyed? Perhaps if Edge failed, the Tower would be destroyed, so the Seekers could escape.

[quote=“D-Unit”]

Still, I don’t see why they would need to alter the original meaning of the words just for the sake of making things a bit more dramatic. Change the meaning enough and you might as well be reading a fanfic instead of the original work.[/quote]

I think quite a lot of the English version was changed from the Japanese version (Azel confessing her love for Edge etc). I’d be interested to know what the prototype says about that line…

Apparantly the Ancients were never referred to as human in the Japanese version either (I think Abadd and Lord Craymen can confirm more about this…).

I like the way Chris Lucich’s translation was kept quite vague/mysterious in places (such as with the line above, and also the line about the Will of the Ancients), but these prototype translations are certainly a breath of fresh air when it comes to trying to interpret what is going on during the games. And I think you’re right about them being closer to the original meaning, perhaps an even better resource in some places for determining the canon storyline than the games themselves?

Whoops, you’re quite right. Looks like I need to play Orta again :anjou_embarassed:

Judging by the use of the words “Absolute Guest” I’m guessing these proto translations are indeed more literal. Lucich’s version was probably to make them make more sense in plain old english.

Oddly enough it was also added in the prototype, which makes me wonder if it was actually the original translator that added the words instead of Lucich. In this case I don’t think it actually changes the meaning of the sentence though (“I…” instead of “I love you”), but it makes more sense to me that Azel couldn’t finish the sentence since (as a drone) she probably didn’t understand her feelings for Edge at that point.

If I remember correctly Abbadd mentioned the translator didn’t actually know anything about the game itself while Luchic, who didn’t understand Japanese, had to work from that translation to create the finished version. Apparently these prototypes contain that original translation, or at least a part of it.

I’ve been going through some of the files, here’s another interesting comparison (encounter with Sestren):

Final version

[quote]
Edge: We’ve come this far. Now it’s up to us… Sestren, show yourself! The Divine Visitor has come.

Sestren: I see you have returned… With a human… Our purpose is to fulfill the will of the ancients. But… You have chosen a different path… You ignore your duty… You disobey the ancient ones… Now, Divine Visitor… you shall die![/quote]

Prototype

[quote]
Edge: You’ve finally come this far… The place ‘you’ wished to be… Now, show me the answer… Show me your true power!!

Sestren: I see you have returned… And that human… Our purpose is to fulfill the assigned duty… But… You exist beyond that will… Eliminate… as done before… Eliminate… erroneous will… and Divine Visitor![/quote]

Again the prototype is more of a literal translation. While there’s certainly interesting differences here for the fans it doesn’t make much sense for anyone else, so it’s understandable that this was altered for the final version. Note how the prototype translation again reveals that the “error” had been eliminated once before (PD Zwei I assume) just like in the memory orbs, something that was lost in the edited version.

Some other smaller differences I noticed: the “Through The Heart” attack from Sestren was called “Physical Attack Structure” in the prototype, while the “Activate Surroundings Detection System” was called “Unleash Ghost Dragons”. Ne-Rai was translated in the prototype as “Rain death on him”.

I don’t really mind lines being mildly changed to enhance the drama of scenes, it’s not like they seriously changed the plot pertaining to Azel’s fate in any way.

We still know that Azel did not die, either way…

Yeah, I always thought of it as a back-up in case Sestren couldn’t be destroyed. Or simply to rid the world of the Tower so it couldn’t be used or manipulated in any way.

Anyway, made for a dramatic scene =P

I read somewhere that Ne-rai roughly means “aim”. Also that a magazine previewing, or whatever, PDS had “Rain death on him” as the meaning.

Perhaps they had or played the prototype and got it from there? Or maybe it actually doesn’t mean “aim” at all =P

Has anyone gotten the prototypes to work successfully when mounted with Daemon Tools? My “Saturn” is throwing up the “Game disc unsuitable for this system” error.

EDIT: Nevermind, got them to actually load. The Dec 22 1997 disc 1 proto is the only one I’ve tried so far, and all that does is play the intro before cutting out back to the “dashboard”. =/