Panzer Dragoon Orta. Memory Cells. Explain

[Geoffrey]

[quote=“GehnTheBerserker”]Geoff : What if the rebels had an expertised insider?An Ancient I mean.

It’s not that hard.Even if that wasn’t the case they you can still conceive it as the hacking of nowadays.You don’t need to have a degree to be able to hack into very important security systems.You need to have the know-how tho.

The know-how can be gained by many different ways tho.[/quote]

I just can’t see how anyone other than the ancients could build an AI incarnate that is both the equal and opposite of Sestren Exsis. Someone suggested that the Heresy dragon was perhaps a back up program meant to replace Sestren Exsis after a certain amount of time had passed or if anything went awry. Reprogramming it to fight against its very creators is reminiscent of Azel’s own fate. If these ancient rebels had to steal drones, then they probably couldn’t create them themselves. This would hold true for the Heresy dragon as well.

[Geoffrey]

Wouldn’t it make sense if the Heresy Program was just a part of Sestren that changed its mind in an unforseen way, a part of the system that didn’t want to conform because it didn’t see the logic in it? An AI that re-evaluated its purpose and decided to fight against the Ancients’ plan, because it knew that the Towers would never heal the world, and saw that they had become a menace?

Who knows? If someone wanted to put a guaranteed end to the ancients’ reign of extermination, simply reprogramming the AI in the same manner as Azel would make more sense IMO. As we know, the ancients spent a great deal of time and energy ensuring that their creations were loyal to no one but them.

[Draikin]

[quote=“Geoffrey Duke”]

One of my theories about this is that the Impurity actually told

Sestren to activate the Heresy Dragon. I see Sestren as a tool, linked to a collective consciousness that controlled it. This consciousness, the Will of the Ancients, was formed by the Ancients themselves who resided in Sestren. But what if somehow there was an Impurity in that consciousness that commanded Sestren to do something that he was not meant to do? Maybe a rebel that managed to upload his consciousness into Sestren together with The Ancients. The Impurity escaped into the world together with “his” Heresy Dragon, and re-emerged in PD 1 as the Sky Rider (his consciousness anyway).

I can see where this is going.

It would explain why the Dark Dragon was so eager to kill the Sky Rider. I’m more inclined to believe that the impurity was something that took control of the Heresy dragon or activated it and prevented Sestren from shutting it down. Shelcoof was sent to elimate the impurity after it manifested itself in Elpis. This in my mind, can only mean it was either the Heresy dragon itself or something controlling it. An impurity could simply be something that Sestren can no longer control, or a foreign intruder. Your guess is as good as mine.[/quote]

The green energy that escaped from the Heresy program when it was shot out of Sestren resembles the green energy that escaped from the Skyrider when he died, as mentioned in Geoffrey’s heresy rider theory. Sestren seemed to be some sort of symbiosis between the golden entity and the Will of the Ancients. The Heresy program could have been similar, but controlled by the “Will of the Rebels”. I think the Divine Visitor could have been some sort of replacement to the Impurity that was destroyed when the Skyrider was killed. The Heresy program existed to lead the Divine Visitor, but maybe this Divine Visitor was originally the Impurity.

Perhaps the Impurity entered the humans inhabiting Elpis, while the Heresy Program entered a coolia. I even think that Sestren’s hunt for the Impurity may have been the very reason behind the end of the Ancient Age, but that’s something for another theory.

[system]

Who knows? If someone wanted to put a guaranteed end to the ancients’ reign of extermination, simply reprogramming the AI in the same manner as Azel would make more sense IMO. As we know, the ancients spent a great deal of time and energy ensuring that their creations were loyal to no one but them.

This explanation makes perfect sense to me except for one detail. If the Heresy Program was purposefully altered, why would the reprogrammer make it go active only after ten thousand years? Sestren had done an awful lot of damage by that stage. This suggests to me, at least, that no one intended the Heresy Program to do what it eventually did.

[Geoffrey]

Perhaps the Impurity entered the humans inhabiting Elpis, while the Heresy Program entered a coolia. I even think that Sestren’s hunt for the Impurity may have been the very reason behind the end of the Ancient Age, but that’s something for another theory.

Any theory that includes the Divine Visitor, regards it as real and doesn’t treat it as if it never existed at all sounds great to me.

[Geoffrey]

[quote=“Lance”]

Who knows? If someone wanted to put a guaranteed end to the ancients’ reign of extermination, simply reprogramming the AI in the same manner as Azel would make more sense IMO. As we know, the ancients spent a great deal of time and energy ensuring that their creations were loyal to no one but them.

This explanation makes perfect sense to me except for one detail. If the Heresy Program was purposefully altered, why would the reprogrammer make it go active only after ten thousand years? Sestren had done an awful lot of damage by that stage. This suggests to me, at least, that no one intended the Heresy Program to do what it eventually did.[/quote]

If Sestren was programmed to create the Heresy dragon after 10 000 years – if it was always meant to create the dragon, then its purpose could be modified beforehand and Sestren would ultimately create its own worst enemy.

To be honest, I don’t know what to make of all this. However, only the ancients could’ve built the Heresy dragon (the ancient rebels couldn’t even build drones), so I can only wonder what drove it to free humanity from the shackling will of the ancients.

Judging from Sestren’s first memory orb, the Heresy dragon started its life in Sestren at that point. Why and how it came into existence then and there is open for debate.

[SenorKaffee]

I think the answer lies in the purpose of Sestren.
I mean, what is this tool supposed to do?

Was this pinnacle of ancient technology created out of fear, like so many of our own achievements?

[Ehndow]

I havea question for you big-replies posters :

Why are you considering the Impurity and Heresy a different individual?

Oh and Geoff:They stole Azel cause they could kill two rabbits with only one stone (that’s the portuguese version of the expression anyways :P) : they would take something very important to their enemy and at the same time add that important piece of engeneering to their arsenal/equipment.

Plus just cause they could make their own drones it doesn’t mean that they would be compatible with the Ancients creations (in this case the Towers) as far as interfacing is concerned.

[Geoffrey]

[quote=“SenorKaffee”]I think the answer lies in the purpose of Sestren.
I mean, what is this tool supposed to do?[/quote]

I’ve always believed that the Sestren system was designed to link all the ancient terraforming ruins together. Don’t tell me the network consists of wormholes leading to other parts of the galaxy.

[quote=“GehnTheBerserker”]I havea question for you big-replies posters :

Why are you considering the Impurity and Heresy a different individual?

Oh and Geoff:They stole Azel cause they could kill two rabbits with only one stone (that’s the portuguese version of the expression anyways :P) : they would take something very important to their enemy and at the same time add that important piece of engeneering to their arsenal/equipment.

Plus just cause they could make their own drones it doesn’t mean that they would be compatible with the Ancients creations (in this case the Towers) as far as interfacing is concerned.[/quote]

I doubt every human faction would find the notion of building sentient slaves as particularly humane, and if these unidentified rebels could somehow build their own drones then they wouldn’t need to steal Azel in the first place.

Azel was freed from the shackles of servitude and chose to fight against her creators of her own volition. Doesn’t liberating drones amount to something noble? Even the Sky Rider (assuming he was a drone) chose to help save the world; no one forced him to do so.

The impurity is almost certainly the Heresy dragon. Sestren uses the term of describe the intruder as if Sestren has lost control of it. After all, what’s the antonym/opposite of impure?

[Ehndow]

and if these unidentified rebels could somehow build their own drones then they wouldn’t need to steal Azel in the first place.

Care to read my post agehn?
They would need to steal Azel simply because their drones couldn’t interface with the Towers.Not compatible.

[Geoffrey]

[quote=“GehnTheBerserker”]

and if these unidentified rebels could somehow build their own drones then they wouldn’t need to steal Azel in the first place.

Care to read my post agehn?
They would need to steal Azel simply because their drones couldn’t interface with the Towers.Not compatible.[/quote]

But if they possessed the technology to build their very own drones, then what would stop them from making those drones “compatible”?

The rebels freed drones from slavery; they didn’t build and enslave their own. Besides, Pandora’s Box states that drones were built by the ancients to serve the ancients. By all accounts, the ancients were the only people capable of building them.

[Draikin]

The impurity is almost certainly the Heresy dragon. Sestren uses the term of describe the intruder as if Sestren has lost control of it. After all, what’s the antonym/opposite of impure?

I still can’t see how this could be true. The Dark Dragon could have killed Lagi in the beginning of PD1 when the Skyrider was shot, but he simply flies away. Why? Because the Impurity was eliminated. I can’t believe the Dark Dragon headed towards the Tower because he was too weak to defeat Lagi. After all, Lagi and the Skyrider were being chased by the Dark Dragon and not the other way around. By killing the Skyrider, the Impurity was killed.

[Geoffrey]

[quote=“D-Unit”]

The impurity is almost certainly the Heresy dragon. Sestren uses the term of describe the intruder as if Sestren has lost control of it. After all, what’s the antonym/opposite of impure?

I still can’t see how this could be true. The Dark Dragon could have killed Lagi in the beginning of PD1 when the Skyrider was shot, but he simply flies away. Why? Because the Impurity was eliminated. I can’t believe the Dark Dragon headed towards the Tower because he was too weak to defeat Lagi. After all, Lagi and the Skyrider were being chased by the Dark Dragon and not the other way around. By killing the Skyrider, the Impurity was killed.[/quote]

We can’t be absolutely certain that the impurity was the Heresy dragon but it’s the most logical explanation (then again, I’m willing to believe anything). Also, the Dark Dragon and its rider don’t head straight for the Tower after killing the Sky Rider: they intercept Lagi at the end of Episode 2.

Me and Solo believe the Sky Rider was a drone capable of opening a gateway to Sestren through the Tower outside the Imperial capital, and that’s why the Dark Dragon ensured his demise.

http://www.panzerdragoon.net/theories/excavation_site_theory_09.jpg

Lagi merges moving images of Azel and the Sky Rider inside Edge’s mind during the vision he receives to suggest they share a fundamental similarity. Lagi needed Azel to open a path to Sestren, so the Sky Rider’s purpose could end there.

[Ehndow]

Geoff: Don’t you think that the simple fact the Rebels “changed” Azel is proof enough they COULD in fact build a drone if they wanted to?

I’m sure that would be a very tough task.(changing Azel i mean)

[Geoffrey]

Geoff: Don’t you think that the simple fact the Rebels “changed” Azel is proof enough they COULD in fact build a drone if they wanted to?

So why didn’t they? Why did they resort to stealing one if they could build a compatible drone by themselves?

They could alter Azel to interface with the Tower of Uru, so not build a new drone for the same purpose instead? Why go to all the trouble of stealing one?

[Ehndow]

First fo all I meant build a drone.A NORMAL one.They couln’t make a drone compatible with teh Tower, but they could make an average drone.

Secondly like I said, and like you said : they didn’t believe in slavery so they used one of their drones and gave her a bit of free will.

[Solo_Wing]

[quote=“GehnTheBerserker”]First fo all I meant build a drone.A NORMAL one.They couln’t make a drone compatible with teh Tower, but they could make an average drone.

Secondly like I said, and like you said : they didn’t believe in slavery so they used one of their drones and gave her a bit of free will.[/quote]

I think (and this is going by the English translation), the rebels/opposing side in the Ancient Age stole Azel before she had been completed. However, if the rebels couldn’t create their own drones (and I see no reason to believe they could do) then it’s unlikely they’d be able to modify Azel either. So, what is most likely, is that the rebels stole Azel when she was completed, but not fully tested and restrained.

The scientists who ‘built’ her said that she was not completed when the rebels stole her, so that could explain the reason why she ‘rebelled’ against the Will of the Ancients. The Ancient rebels might have simply stolen her before the Ancients had the chance to implant any restriants to her amount of free will.

[Draikin]

[quote=“Solo Wing Dragon”]I think (and this is going by the English translation), the rebels/opposing side in the Ancient Age stole Azel before she had been completed. However, if the rebels couldn’t create their own drones (and I see no reason to believe they could do) then it’s unlikely they’d be able to modify Azel either. So, what is most likely, is that the rebels stole Azel when she was completed, but not fully tested and restrained.

The scientists who ‘built’ her said that she was not completed when the rebels stole her, so that could explain the reason why she ‘rebelled’ against the Will of the Ancients. The Ancient rebels might have simply stolen her before the Ancients had the chance to implant any restriants to her amount of free will.[/quote]

I agree. The scientists speak of a device they wanted to implant in the drones, but they only got permission for that after Azel had been kidnapped. However, something was wrong with the device, and I think this may have been the reason Abadd “malfunctioned” at the end of episode 5. Azel didn’t have this device so she was free in her thoughts, and that allowed her to make her own decisions.

[Ehndow]

I think (and this is going by the English translation), the rebels/opposing side in the Ancient Age stole Azel before she had been completed. However, if the rebels couldn’t create their own drones (and I see no reason to believe they could do)

You guys are seeing this from the wrong point of view.Why shouldn’t they eb able to create drones?

PS.I’m NOT saying they can.Don’t get the idea that Gehn thinks the rebels could do drones ;p

[system]

Reading through this thread, I suspect that we’re making too many assumptions about these ancient “rebels”…

The only piece of dialogue I can remember that mentions Azel’s kidnappers is the following line from Craymen:

Long ago there was dissension among the ancient ones. After centuries of fighting…

Now, we know that the Ancient Age involved endless wars between technologically comparable nations. By the way Craymen talks about these “rebels”, they just sound like one of these Ancient Age factions to me. I don’t think they would have been any less advanced than the other side; if they weren’t at a similar level, they would have been simply crushed, rather than there being “centuries of fighting”.

Beyond that, there doesn’t seem to be much evidence on which to base any further conclusions about them. From that description, which is pretty much all we have, they just sound like another group of Ancients as far as I can tell.

The Towers were only built by the other Ancient Age nation, of course. So how could the rival Ancients build Drones to operate something that they would not have access to? Ancient Age technology seems to be far beyond rocket science, and if they didn’t have the blueprints for the Tower I don’t see how they could make a Drone that could operate it. The technology just seems so ridiculously complex. It’d be like trying to make software for a piece of hardware that you didn’t know the first thing about.

Now Azel was made in Uru, and Uru was directly linked to the Tower. In all logic, Azel was probably created to work in the Tower, to interface with it and operate its systems. As far as I can tell, this would be why the rival Ancients needed her. As it’s never implied that this group reprogrammed Azel, I don’t believe that they did. They probably just planned to use her original function - controlling the Tower - for their own purposes.

Now please don’t take this the wrong way, anyone, but saying that this rival group were interested in freeing Drones from slavery seems to be jumping to conclusions a little. As we know that there were technologically cometitive sides in the Ancient Age, it seems more likely to me that these “rebels” we keep talking about were just the other group of Ancients, waging war with bio-weapons and maybe even Drones of their own.