New Sonic game: Sonic Generations

Unreal 3 is pretty poor for the consoles in 3rd party games , bar some examples like Mirror’s Edge.

I stand by that

LOL, You’re the one acting like I said Bourne made the best use of Unreal 3

I tell you ,what I would have said back then. Play both games, and tell me which one looks the best (In-game) or features more interaction with the surroundings .

It’s easy , you’re the one that had enough to say to me, when I was finding fault with the Wii and asked me if owned one or ever played one ( when just watching youtube is enough or so it seems) . You’re the one that had issues with a reviewer playing a game for only 3hrs, yet you’re the one that has no trouble with people posting comments with games they’ve never played.

He played it far longer than most people will ever play a Sonic game. lets remember people like Parn, just a quick view on Youtube is more than enough. I’m amazed the reviewer even bothered to play the game, when you only need to watch YouTube

LOL, Like I said you play a game looking for flaws you’ll find them all right . Both can play your little game, more so with Sunshine which full of iffy moments, there quite a few in Sonic II and that’s hailed as a classic

We can all link videos from Youtube mate

No I’m not. You excused Bourne’s quality by saying “it’s UE3, what do you expect” or something along those lines. Your own words. I never said you said it’s the best use of the engine. It’s clearly not and even you can see that. You do however excuse developers rather than accuse them for the flaws you see. There’s no logic in this. If some developers can use it well, you should expect all developers to do the same. The tech can do well, when used well, nothing comes for free obviously. Besides, they chose the engine for Bourne in the first place. If it wasn’t suitable for it, it’s their own fault again. not the engine’s. Excusing the developers and publisher isn’t logical. And there’s no reason to move the goalposts and add “for consoles” there. The tech is good anywhere. Even on iphones and ipads now. Obviously developers can’t do as much but that goes for any engine. They’re weaker and that’s it.

Yes, I was talking with you at the time, not Parn. You always harp on others for ownership, I was just asking to see if you follow the same standards you want to impose on others. If I remember right, it turned out that you don’t, even though you weren’t even speaking about a specific game at the time, but rather making vague comments about a whole library.

Also, motion & pointing controls were new at the time so could not be judged without having extensive experience with them in games that make good use of them (there were many that didn’t). That experience is all I wanted to know when I asked that, not specifically the ownership of the system or any specific games, just an understanding of the system in general. Everyone knows how buttons and d-pads and analog sticks are are and Sonic 4 does absolutely nothing new, it does old school things and it does them, for many, badly.

No, I didn’t have issues with the hours he played, I had issues with the factual errors in the review and the lack of understanding of the game. I’ve explained this about 10 times over, you even quoted me saying this same thing, yet you keep living in your fantasy land where I said that. Blatantly lying about this over and over and over doesn’t make it true.

I didn’t and I don’t care how long he played it for. Unlike Parn’s comments, the review was full of factual errors. Read above, read previous comments, don’t live in a fantasy land where the facts are how you want them rather than how they happened.

Also, seriously, all of this, the Muramasa review, and the Wii comments, have absolutely nothing to do with our Bourne/Kenzan/UE3 discussion. Nothing! So, again, what is the reason you keep bringing that discussion up? How can those be the reason you keep bringing that discussion up, when they aren’t in it? This time make some sense.

You don’t have to look for them to find the flaws in Sonic 4. Every single second of the game is riddled with them. They’re not bugs that only show up once and go away. They’re design choices in its very core. Is this really hard to understand? Or are you claiming Sonic doesn’t move like he does in many of the videos that Parn brought up as examples (rather than as the only information he used to come to his conclusions and decision)? Yeah, they show some bugs, like walking backwards, but they also spend a lot of time showing normal jumping and running about making very clear the fact Sonic’s momentum based gameplay expected from the 2D titles is nowhere to be seen. Many people don’t like how Sonic moves and feels in the game and that’s that. You disagree. They don’t care, they still won’t buy it or consider it good. Deal with it and drop the superiority complex. You don’t know better.

[quote=“Parn”]

I like how this guy posts Youtube links of glitches when my video focuses on a fundamental problem with how the game controls. Sonic stopping on a dime when you jump isn’t a glitch… that’s literally how they designed the game. It’s shit.[/quote]

Before you get all erect and argue against me, I will just start off by saying that I am not a fan of Sonic 4 either - but apparently this was down to the feedback of focus groups not understanding the ‘pinball’ physics of Sonic.

They didn’t* like* it when sonic kept momentum as he jumped/came out of a roll.

One big difference between Japanese and American software houses is their use of focus groups - you generally find Japanese developers don’t bother with them.

Of course, whether or not some uneducated asshole’s opinion on a ticky-box questionaire sheet can be taken as advice to follow when refining your creation is anyone’s guess… but I’d say Japan has the right idea, even if their game’s industry is struggling (but then again, as much as you see this banded about, so are the rest of the world - recession much?)

Out of Epic hands Ureal 3 tech on the consoles has been pretty poor in most 3rd party games and totally outclassed by the likes of Capcom’s framework engine . That doesn’t change that Bourne looks better than Kenzan

Yes and had the ordasity to ask me if I owned one. When I all I need to do (rather than waste money on the console ) was to watch YouTube to see how rubbish the console is

Yes I remember you having a go at me for that, only for to NCL to bring out the Wii Motion plus

So why did you even bring up how many hours he/she played the game ?

parn can only link to Youtube and by God we can all do that, and highlight iffy moment in games , even in classics (I’m sure they’ll be some in Saga)

So wrong and incorrect it’s untrue.

If you go out of your way to play the game like that , Sonic would , so would a lot of games. There’s countless vid’s of GT5 iffy physics systems - but that’s from people going out of their way to highlight the flaws, when most gamers just wouldn’t play the game in that way at all

Dumb qualification. How has MT Framework been out of Capcom’s hands? Hint: it hasn’t.

Also, Lost Planet 2 suffers from performance issues, while levels are severely segmented. Sengoku Basara 3 suffers from visible pop-in (on PS3 too) and lack of interactivity. Devil May Cry 4 (also not really more interactive than the average brawler), Dead Rising (though it also has evident compromises to have all those zombies at once) and Resident Evil 5 are pretty much the only games to really show off the engine. A few more good games have been made with it as well, but nothing that really shows it off as a technical marvel or anything, such as MvC3 which, as a fighting game, is less taxing with just a few character on screen.

The engine hasn’t been poor, specific games have been, and several haven’t been.

As said, MT Framework isn’t perfect either, even in the owner’s hands. Consoles are weak and that’s that. Saying Mass Effect 2 or Mirror’s Edge or whatever game has a few issues here and there doesn’t discredit the engine’s capabilities. It’s a tool, not magic.

Which I never disputed, I merely said Bourne’s not good enough to single out as an example for SEGA out of the thousands of games that one could single out as examples for SEGA. If you look up to something, look up to something great, not something slightly less mediocre.

Ordasity? Do you mean audacity? Either way, no, I’ve already explained myself:

[quote]You always harp on others for ownership, I was just asking to see if you follow the same standards you want to impose on others. If I remember right, it turned out that you don’t, even though you weren’t even speaking about a specific game at the time, but rather making vague comments about a whole library.

Also, motion & pointing controls were new at the time so could not be judged without having extensive experience with them in games that make good use of them (there were many that didn’t). That experience is all I wanted to know when I asked that, not specifically the ownership of the system or any specific games, just an understanding of the system in general. Everyone knows how buttons and d-pads and analog sticks are are and Sonic 4 does absolutely nothing new, it does old school things and it does them, for many, badly. [/quote]

This is a stupidly outrageous (even for you) misrepresentation of Parn’s and my points. Youtube videos are only part of what provides enough information for someone to know if he wants to buy a game or not (not to review it). The many different ways to acquire relevant and reliable information according to one’s video game tastes have already been outlined, that’s a fact that can’t simply be undone, whether you ignore it or not.

You probably remember wrong as usual or once again couldn’t comprehend basic English. Plenty motion controlled games are great fun without Motion Plus, which did bring great improvements in some areas. Of course technology can always become better given time and I seriously doubt you can quote me saying “no, nothing will ever be better than the Wii remote” for Motion Plus to be relevant to a past discussion in any way. With your logic one could tell you your favorite console is absolute shit and the only proof needed is that a newer console came or will come out some years after it. Hardly rational thinking here.

I didn’t, initially, it was merely extra information provided in subsequent posts and I never focused on it. Only you do. I linked to the thread, couldn’t you just look instead of ask me? And when did I ever say one should expect the same attitude from a potential consumer as he expects from someone tasked with reviewing a game? That’s right, I never did, that’s your own addition in order to have another nonexistent point for your “arguments”.

This is an opinion, not a fact that somehow counters my and many others’ opinion who do feel Sonic’s behaviour is awful in the game and therefor every single second of the experience is so since every single second of the actual gameplay revolves around that.

Like what? Yes, some bugs were shown in the videos Parn linked, but as said already:

You just choose to ignore this and pretend bugs and glitches is all that people have against the game. Also, obviously, he’s just showing you the flaws you refuse to admit exist. That doesn’t mean this is the only type of video he viewed to decide (or that he only viewed videos to decide as you keep stating when he hasn’t done such).

? I’m simply saying that there’s better engines from 3rd party developers, where they’ve been developed for the consoles in mind . Unreal may be grat on the PC and when in Epic hands on the consoles, otherwise most Unreal 3 games on the consoles fall way short of other engines for graphics and Crytek just wipes the floor with it

Are we having a laugh now . Or do I need to make a list of the Unreal games that have performance issues (at times) on the consoles and suffer from poor animation and low res Textures, because there’s plenty . Lost Planet 2 simply looks way better than any Unreal 3 game (non Epic) one could mention, pretty amazing given it come from a Japanese studio. And while DMV IV may have been a game by the numbers I really can’t think of many Unreal 3 consoles games running at native 1080p and 60 fps at all

And which consoles games has it been really good in ? Bar Lost Oddesy, Mirror’s Edge I really haven’t been that impressed at all, and been far more impressed with the Framework, Anvil, Yeti, IW, and now CryEngine 3 game engines for console games.

[quote]Consoles are weak and that’s that
[/quote]

LOL, Grow up !. Play the likes of Drakes II there’s not many better games (full stop) or better looking games . Not bad for a 5 year console

I too could list a number of games that do things far better and more impressive than Kezan or the Yakuza series (AC, Heavy Rain, Mass Effect) but Bourne like kezan was an early game and even though it was multi and not from the a big name developer simply made better use of the next gen chipset with better animation and more interaction with the surroundings

fair points, Given the money spent on Kezan over 25 million) it was a single platform game and buy one of the best teams inside SEGA - One just might have hopped and expected better .

It is spot on , how many more links to Youtube does Parn need to do ? .

Nope. You have enough to say when I was find faults with the Wi and had to hit back with Do I own one (even though I did) and make out I’m anti NCL (yet its somehow ok to be Anti Sonic( . When all I needed to do, was just use YouTube and use forum comments to know the Wii was a disappointment

No I was very clear, when having a go at how cheap and weak the Wii Pad was and how I had trouble with the Wii Tracking my motions : again you had enough to say about that; only for NCL to bring out the Wii motion Plus

You couldn’t make it up

LOL, When even bring it up at all , if it meant nothing.

Exactly !. And you only know how good or bad a game plays , if you play it for your self . To watch videos of both Fifa and Pro Evo they can both look great, only by playing both (for your self) will you ever now for sure.

There’s never been a more perfectly example of this than Daytona USA onthe Saturn. The CE looks so much better in all the screen shots and all the videos , yet it’s handling and AI is weak and not a patch onthe Model 2 or AM#2 Saturn port.

Only by playing the game for your self, will you really know for sure.

NO, and you’re making the mistake that I somehow think SONIC is the be an end all. I quite like Sonic IV I know it has issues- but then again so did Sonic II (for which is most people favs) Sonic CD had it’s own issues and iffy moments and that again is hails as a classic.

When I’m playing Sonic and go into a Ball to roll down and go into/do the lop to lop - I don’t suddenly break out of the ball until I’ve cleared the lop

Like I say you play a game looking for bugs and what not - You’ll find them

Here some more

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvGZNLWbVYU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPsDgYeMFrY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOHXA8MuwIc&feature=related

Seems Sonic not the only one with iffy physics and issues

You guys can agree to disagree you know!

Edited with a fewstatements] to show your next response is also bullshit circle jerking.

Ok, seriously, what the fuck? You’re the one who brought up UE3 game issues as a reason it’s so bad your own words: you just called it poor instead of shit - many times over - so no twists here no matter what you want to believe] on consoles, while praising MT Framework. All I did there is present that what you praise also has such issues, to a severe degree, depending on the title. This should have allowed you to acknowledge the obvious, that I’ve been trying to explain in the first place. That is not that I think MT Framework is bad, or worse than UE3. That obvious thing is that it’s always up to the developer yes, I took the time to post it, since you always blame the shitty “poor” UE3 instead of the developer, despite acknowledging Epic’s own games tend to lack such issues, despite Capcom’s own MT Framework - which you keep praising as so superior to shitty “poor” UE3 - games often having similar issues] (and the development conditions imposed by the publisher, the market, the whole money deal, etc) to utilise a tool like UE3 or MT Framework to the best of their ability, an ability which (surprise!) varies from studio to studio, and that there’s no magic recipe for an engine that will make all issues disappear from all video games. And all this doesn’t mean UE3 or any other engine is bad. So, yes, you can keep circle jerking and mention some more UE3 games that have a few, or many, issues here and there did you read the sentence before this one? you neglected to quote it in favor of just the next one, when I’ve already addressed the point you made right here], you can even list some absolutely shitty UE3 titles, as if it means anything at all, but you’re better off to instead understand the simple concepts presented to you and just, not.

As for the rest, I’m really sorry TA, but you didn’t add anything new to the discussion, just some more broken English, broken memories, broken logic, willful ignorance, and circle jerking that I could respond to by just quoting my last comment word to word. I’ll instead let you go back and read it yourself and wait for a proper response before replying to you.

I’ve tried many times but it doesn’t work with someone who holds three year grudges over, at the time, friendly debates he claimed to enjoy. Seriously, when I found that thread I expected a shitfest as seen here, but it all went down much better (outside occasional heated moments or instances where he once again didn’t get what I was saying quite right, and I had to repeat it in different ways) where I even defended him from misunderstandings with Parn, which is when he mentioned he enjoyed the debate. Yet here he is, years later, still bringing it up as if it’s a discussion I made no sense in, contradicted myself in, made a fool of myself in, treated him unjustly in, or whatever the fuck his point was when he brought it up here, in the Bayonetta thread, in the E3 2008 thread, in the Kinect thread, in seemingly every damn thread I write in. Imagine how he is with things he didn’t enjoy.

I apparently must be completely wrong, UE3 must be shit outside Epic, Sonic 4 must be good, Bourne must be an example for SEGA to look up to just because it’s slightly shinier than Kenzan, Bourne’s flaws must exist because of how shit UE3 must be and there’s absolutely no room for opinion and different angles to view something, anything from. Only “facts”, like that Super Mario Galaxy also has some bugs so you absolutely can’t hate Sonic 4 yet not hate that, you can’t point out factual errors in reviews if you can at the same time accept that someone who didn’t play a game doesn’t want to actually buy it, you can’t claim some motion control methods worked well, when implemented well, because better motion control technology appeared since, etc. In short, every post I’ve made in the past three years, or since I joined, has to be factually wrong if TA here happens to think otherwise.

One can only play nice for so long before giving up on etiquette that is neither returned nor, in the end, worth the effort. Not for him. Especially when 80% of my posts has to be an elaborate equivalent to “wtf, I did not, wtf, you did so” as if this guy has been taking my posts and his replies through babelfish or google. Shit, in the end, I’m not who brought up all that random shit in a fucking Sonic thread. How do you reason with the one who did?

Anyway, I’m sorry for the rant, I didn’t mean to bite your head off.

Sonic 4 is shit. This is indisputable fact. I have spoken.

Oh Give it a rest . It’s the same old story with you , Twist and turn what people say and then get all nasty. It’s really you that’s brought nothing new into the debate, though I guess I should be amazed your actually played Lost Planet2

You took the time even post that ?.

?. Not I can list you quite a few many good games, but they all tend to suffer from the Unreal problems on consoles - Iffy animation, poor textures Ect.

i must say the last great Sonic game, was Sonic for the GBA, and the nice re release for my PSP, but other than that, the cycle is ture to words, hopes rise and fall all at once.

chain of thought…

“yay new sonic game… oh god a new sonic game… oh sh*t it has Sonic America stamped on it… lame… oh well dreams a free”

Looks stunning !, In your face Sonic haters :wink: :stuck_out_tongue:

gametrailers.com/video/e3-20 … ons/714052

gametrailers.com/video/e3-20 … ons/714050

The classic Sonic stage looks interesting enough, the graphics are way better than Sonic 4 (not exactly difficult) and the level design seems to be up to the standards of the old games as well. I just hope they don’t mess up the physics again. The “current generation” Sonic gameplay levels on the other hand, I really don’t get why they even bothered implementing those…

What were people expecting with Sonic IV ?. I thought it was meant to made in the style of the classic 16 bit Sonic’s and that’s exactly what we got.

I love the ‘current Gen’ Sonic levels in Unleashed and Colour’s. My only issues is the controls are far from perfect . That said Generations looks brilliant, the best GFX I’ve seen to any up coming game to date , and is the SEGA of old - Awesome Engine, Blue Skies and a killer sound track ; How I missed it !

They bother because its the only thing that they didn?t screw up until now! Sonic Heroes was decent, Sonic Unleashed had wonderful day stages (modern levels) but shitty night stages that ruined it. Color i still didn?t play it but i heard its good.

So its only natural to see them in generation, if they can deliver modern stages with the quality of Sonic Unleashe, and old stages like Sonic IV but with a LOT better physics engine than it should be a pretty good game.

Except for the part where the game doesn’t control like the 16-bit games at all, which makes it a complete slap in the face that they released such a half-assed product while preying on overly hopeful Sega fans (again).

[quote=“Parn”]

Except for the part where the game doesn’t control like the 16-bit games at all, which makes it a complete slap in the face that they released such a half-assed product while preying on overly hopeful Sega fans (again).[/quote]

Don’t tell me , You Tube told you so …

I was expecting this. Sonic 4’s controls didn’t feel right, the graphics (or rather the art design) weren’t all that great and the level design just wasn’t as good as it was in the old games which, coupled with the air dash, ruined the “momentum based platforming” that was mentioned in the classic Sonic generations video.

I dislike the current gen levels because it just takes away the control you have over Sonic. It’s perfectly illustrated in the video you posted: it’s really just speedboosts -> dash -> dash -> speedboost -> press random button -> dash until you get stuck somewhere or fall of the track. It’s striking how they basically first describe the Classic Sonic gameplay and why it worked, and then show the current gen which really just removed most of the platforming, control and good level design in favor of having Sonic run across the map at a speed that leaves him near impossible to control.

I always hear people saying that I do have to wonder if any of them ever played Sonic II . When Sonic is at full speed on the Chemical Zone you have little control and the screen moves so fast, it’s next to impossible to anticipate what is coming next and its one of the most basic and simple platform games ever ; Yet Sonic II is often Hailed as a classic and the best in the Series.

Even in the new Sonic there’s plenty of the old Platform levels even in Unleashed like inthe Dragon Road sections

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]

Except for the part where the game doesn’t control like the 16-bit games at all, which makes it a complete slap in the face that they released such a half-assed product while preying on overly hopeful Sega fans (again).

Don’t tell me , You Tube told you so …[/quote]

Yup. That and fan feedback, reviews, and a huge, overwhelming assortment of evidence all over the place.

It’s as obvious as the temperature of a steaming pot of water on the stove. It’s hot, I promise.