Mysterious ruins in the PD world

Panzer Dragoon
1

OK, as we all know, the PD world is littered with ruins and ancient structures of all shapes and sizes. However, something that is never discussed in the games is that there are apparently two different types of ruins. On the one hand, there are the typical white stone/bone organic structures of the Ancients, and on the other hand there is… all the other stuff.

I’m thinking about things like the sunken city from PD1 Episode 1, or the ruined arches in the Garil Desert in PDS, or the strange ruin at the end of PDO’s Episode 1 (City in the Storm).

What is the general opinion on these ruins? Were they made by the Ancients, in just a different style to their other works? Were they simply made by human civilisations since the Ancient Age fell? And what would you categorise as “non-Ancient Age” ruins? All thoughts are welcome.

2

Ancient - a monotonic bone-like material is used to construct it

Non-ancient - everything else

3

There was supposed to be a settlement in Uru before the whole place was flooded. The stone archways are too transitory to survive 10 000 years of erosion, so they could only be relatively recent structures. Lagi, the webmaster of The Art of Panzer Dragoon, had some ideas as to the origins of these archways.

I don’t believe the ancient ruins are organic in any way, but constructed out of very fine, timeless metals with sculptured power lines running across their surface.

4

I think the sunken city from PD1 is indeed an ancient city (very similar ruins can be seen near the end of Episode 5 of PD Orta). I can’t see how humans could have built them after the fall of the ancient age. Only an advanced society would have been able to build that. Perhaps they don’t look like the other white/organic ruins because they were just buildings and nothing more. So in my opinion, most of the ruins we’ve seen were indeed built by the Ancients, even what seems to be non-ancient stuff. I’m not sure about the ruins in Episode 1 of PD Orta, but there’s nothing that would suggest that there has ever been another advanced human tribe besides the Empire after the fall of the ancient age. The only other beings that I believe could have built this are the drones that gathered and formed tribes after the ancient age.

5

Well, it has been about 10,000 years since the Ancient Age fell, and 10,000 years is a ridiculously long time in human terms.

Looking at the history of the real world, so many architecturally-advanced civilisations have risen and fallen in the last few thousand years alone. The Egyptians, for example, left monuments that have stood the test of the millennia. My own guess would be that these mysterious ruins were created by the PD world’s equivalent of these few-thousand-years dead cultures.

The Empire emerged only within the past 300 years or so. On reflection, it would be extremely strange if humankind had gone 9,700 years without producing a single civilisation capable of creating these other ruins. There surely must have been “advanced” civilisations before the Empire; that they would have crumbled and been forgotten would be a matter of course, in historical terms.

6

[quote=“Geoffrey Duke”]There was supposed to be a settlement in Uru before the whole place was flooded. The stone archways are too transitory to survive 10 000 years of erosion, so they could only be relatively recent structures. Lagi, the webmaster of The Art of Panzer Dragoon, had some ideas as to the origins of these archways.

I don’t believe the ancient ruins are organic in any way, but constructed out of very fine, timeless metals with sculptured power lines running across their surface.[/quote]

Jubah was born in Uru so they can’t be that old.

7

[quote=“Lance”]Well, it has been about 10,000 years since the Ancient Age fell, and 10,000 years is a ridiculously long time in human terms.

Looking at the history of the real world, so many architecturally-advanced civilisations have risen and fallen in the last few thousand years alone. The Egyptians, for example, left monuments that have stood the test of the millennia. My own guess would be that these mysterious ruins were created by the PD world’s equivalent of these few-thousand-years dead cultures.

The Empire emerged only within the past 300 years or so. On reflection, it would be extremely strange if humankind had gone 9,700 years without producing a single civilisation capable of creating these other ruins. There surely must have been “advanced” civilisations before the Empire; that they would have crumbled and been forgotten would be a matter of course, in historical terms.[/quote]

True, but the conditions were completely different in the Panzer Dragoon world. The world was pretty much dead after the fall of the Ancient Age, which made it difficult for humanity to survive. The presence of the bio monsters made it even more difficult.

There are more reasons why I think that the stone ruins were indeed built by the Ancients themselves. For example: the ruins from Episode 5 of PD Orta. Even a civilization like the Empire would have trouble building them. According to Pandora’s Box there are records that indicate the area froze over rapidly at around the same time the ancient age ended. It’s impossible that any civilization would have been able to build anything in such harsh conditions. They must have been built in a very different climate, during the Ancient Age.

8

This is actually a very good point - something I’d overlooked, in fact. I’d always assumed the PDO Episode 5 ruins to be non-Ancient Age as well, as they are all incredibly similar to the PD1 Episode 1 sunken city.

On the other hand, these arches and pillars would have to have survived 10,000 years of erosion if they had been there since the Ancient Age. This would of course be pretty unlikely, given that they seem to be made out of simple stone masonry, and are in a very harsh climate. In actual fact, they aren’t even in particularly bad condition, just broken up a bit. Very mysterious…

I wouldn’t say it was impossible that they were built by a civilisation after the Ancient Age, though. Our real world has farmed out some really hostile climates to certain civilisations, but they’ve still done pretty well with them.

This can apparently join all the other PD plot aspects that are pretty hard to explain… has anyone else ever given this any thought?

9

How the ruins could remain intact for that period of time is indeed strange. You’re right about the fact that they don’t seem to be in bad condition. In fact it almost seems that they were partially destroyed during the ancient age and then stayed in the same condition during 10,000 years. However, we don’t really know what they were really made of. Given the Ancients’ incredibly advanced knowledge, they were probably capable of producing an extremely solid material that is almost immune to any sort of weather condition.

Perhaps, but I can’t imagine any civilization building those pillars in that kid of weather on frozen ground. And that’s even without considering the surprisingly huge amount of mutated monsters that populate the area.

10

The Ancients certainly could, as that standard white stone/bone substance fits this description exactly. The Episode 5 ruins really do look like just normal stonework to me, though - the ones poking out of the sea at the end, particularly so. Perhaps the Ancients could make the white substance look like stone, but that seems unlikely to me, and they probably would have done it more often if they were able.

The mutated monsters could possibly have inhabited the place only recently. They are all just variations on creatures found in the Garil Desert in PDS and the Forest of Mutation in PDO. This might suggest that they only recently spread to the region, after originating elsewhere.

Importantly, the ruins are only found on the borders of the Glacial Plains (near the sea), not in the heart of them where Orta starts off. Maybe the icy region only spread across the ruins after thay were built? That would explain things quite well, as the borders of cold/frozen regions are usually unstable in reality, especially given seasonal variations.

11

We actually had this exact thread on Die Welt Forums- I had mentioned that maybe areas like PD1 !st Episode were an in between civilization, like they were after the Ancient’s collapse, but then they too were destroyed, never quite getting up there in greatness, a mere footnote. Our own history is litered with advanced civilizations that just die somewhere in the middle, I can’t see why Panzer universe would be any different.

12

[quote=“Lance”]

The Ancients certainly could, as that standard white stone/bone substance fits this description exactly. The Episode 5 ruins really do look like just normal stonework to me, though - the ones poking out of the sea at the end, particularly so. Perhaps the Ancients could make the white substance look like stone, but that seems unlikely to me, and they probably would have done it more often if they were able.[/quote]

But like I said, perhaps they were just buildings and nothing more, unlike the bone/white structures. It’s also possible that these structures are even older than most of the ruins and Towers. I doubt the Ancients would have replaced all of their structures whenever they discovered a new substance to create their buildings.

[quote=“Lance”]The mutated monsters could possibly have inhabited the place only recently. They are all just variations on creatures found in the Garil Desert in PDS and the Forest of Mutation in PDO. This might suggest that they only recently spread to the region, after originating elsewhere.

Importantly, the ruins are only found on the borders of the Glacial Plains (near the sea), not in the heart of them where Orta starts off. Maybe the icy region only spread across the ruins after thay were built? That would explain things quite well, as the borders of cold/frozen regions are usually unstable in reality, especially given seasonal variations.[/quote]

If I remember correctly, the area is called “Eternal Glacies”, meaning it has always been that way since the end of the Ancient Age. And in Episode 3, we also see the remains of stone structures, although these were almost completely destroyed, apart from the underground structure. In this case however, it has been confirmed to be a city of the Ancient Age by Pandora’s Box. You can even see the markings on the bridge just before the battle with the Catharp, those are clearly markings of the Ancients.

13

My thoughts exactly.

On a related note, I’ve just remembered something of interest in PDS, at the Red Ruins in the Forest of Zoah. There is a normal Ancient Age ruin there, but it is surrounded by what appear to be crumbled stone bridges, roads and dried-up fountains. Perhaps the lost civilisation(s) revered - rather than feared - the Ancient Age ruins, to the point where they enshrined and surrounded them with their own structures.

(This would parallel the ruined arches and pillars that surround the Uru ruins.)

14

This is another possibility - but then how could normal buildings survive 10,000 years of erosion and weathering? The laws of physics suggest that they would be dust by then.

Looking again at the ruins in the ocean at the end of Eternal Glacies, they do look like they’ve only recently been broken up / submerged. They would perfectly fit lagi’s point about a lost civilisation that fell in recent centuries.

Well, the Episode is named Eternal Glacies, but that may very well be just a poetic title, like many of the Episode names. “Forbidden Memories” and “The Fallen Ground” spring to mind as being similarly cool-sounding, but vague. Remember that “Eternal” strictly means “forever”, too; not “since the end of the Ancient Age” :wink:

By the way, does anyone know what language the word “Glacies” comes from? (Assuming that it is a real word?)

The Fallen Ground’s ruins were definitely from the Ancient Age. The impression I got, though, was that the city would have been the standard white-stone stuff, simply reduced to piles of unrecognisable ash and rubble by the devastating blast.

The bridge at the end is definitely standard Ancient Age architecture: the white-stone with the black line pattern, just extremely damaged. The other buildings are all so annihilated that they must have looked very different when they were intact. For them to have been in the same style as the bridge - i.e. the standard white stone/bone - would make a fair amount of sense.

15

The similarity between these ruins and the ones from PD 1 episode 1 is more than coincidence. The way I see it, the ruins in PD1 were meant to show the player that there was a lost civilization, namely the Ancients. To think that these ruins originated from **another ** lost civilization would complicate things even more. This reminds me of the image in the ending of PD1 that showed the ruins of a city that had the same stone structure. I also assumed this was a city of the Ancients.

One more reason why I think this is indeed the work of the Ancients is because they seemed to build several plateaus around the pillars. This could indicate that they had overpopulation in their time. They had to preserve space by building several floors that each had their own buildings (the same reason they built cities underground).

You’re right about that I guess… :slight_smile:

[quote=“Lance”]The Fallen Ground’s ruins were definitely from the Ancient Age. The impression I got, though, was that the city would have been the standard white-stone stuff, simply reduced to piles of unrecognisable ash and rubble by the devastating blast.

The bridge at the end is definitely standard Ancient Age architecture: the white-stone with the black line pattern, just extremely damaged. The other buildings are all so annihilated that they must have looked very different when they were intact. For them to have been in the same style as the bridge - i.e. the standard white stone/bone - would make a fair amount of sense.[/quote]

The underground structure didn’t show any signs of the white/black pattern…

16

Ah, you mean this image…?

http://www.geocities.com/lance_way/ending

As far as I know, this is actually the Imperial Capital from the time of PD1. That is, the city that we fly through in Episode 6, and which we later see destroyed at the beginning of PDS. (I’m quite sure, but can ayone confirm this?)

Well, building structures with multiple floors isn’t that unique a practice, really… just common sense. Importantly, we don’t know whether the Ancients overpopulated or underpopulated the planet. Either is possible, I’d say.

And can we really be sure that the Ancients built cities underground? Their production facilities were subterranean - or ended up being buried by the ages - but I didn’t think we had too many facts about their cities. (Correct me if I’m wrong, of course.) The Fallen Ground’s city is above ground, for example.

Underground structure… hmm. Do you mean that mysterious cave-like area that Mobo leads you through shortly after you battle with him?

17

I could believe that this was the Imperial city of Episode 6, but the problem is that the sunken city architecture looked **very ** similar to that of the Empirial city. Perhaps the Empire simply repaired the ancient ruins?

[quote=“Lance”]

Underground structure… hmm. Do you mean that mysterious cave-like area that Mobo leads you through shortly after you battle with him?[/quote]

Indeed. That wasn’t a natural formation, someone built it.

18

Hmm, I guess this is a realistic possibility. There are another few reasons why I believe that ruins like these did not originate in the Ancient Age, though:

1) These other ruins are never populated by pure type monsters.

Though this is not essential, the Ancients often left guardians behind in their structures and facilities: places like PD1 Episode 4, or Uru, or The Fallen Ground. All the ruins I’m suggesting to be “non-Ancient Age” have no kind of Ancient Age pure type monsters guarding them.

2) Neither the Empire nor the Seekers seem remotely interested in excavating these other ruins.

The Empire excavated ruins in PD1 and PDS, and the Seekers were interested in both the Blue Ruins and the Red Ruins in PDS. All of these are “definite” Ancient Age ruins; we never see either group excavating any of the other ruins, though. This seems to reinforce the idea that they are not the ruins of the Ancients, but of some more recent - and relatively unimportant - human civilisations.

3) We’re not supposed to have proof that the Ancients were human.

This is kind of an abstract point, but - all the definite Ancient Age ruins are weird, monolithic, inhuman labyrinths. As we aren’t meant to know if the Ancients were human or not, this would make good sense, as the places seem very alien to us.

However, all the “other” ruins look like they were probably built by humans - their arches and pillars generally echo ancient Greek or Roman architecture. If the Imperial Capital was a ruined Ancient Age city as you suggested, that would suggest that the Ancients were definitely human. (Well, to me, that really does look like a human city.) As we know, however, the Ancients were not definitely human…

19

[quote=“Lance”]

similar to that of the Empirial city. Perhaps the Empire simply repaired the ancient ruins?

Hmm, I guess this is a realistic possibility. There are another few reasons why I believe that ruins like these did not originate in the Ancient Age, though:

1) These other ruins are never populated by pure type monsters.

Though this is not essential, the Ancients often left guardians behind in their structures and facilities: places like PD1 Episode 4, or Uru, or The Fallen Ground. All the ruins I’m suggesting to be “non-Ancient Age” have no kind of Ancient Age pure type monsters guarding them.[/quote]

But the ruins that you designate as “Ancient Age” all have something to do with armament production (exactly the reason why the Empire researches them). Are there any areas that could be considered as an Ancient city if the stone buildings didn’t belong to them?

[quote=“Lance”]3) We’re not supposed to have proof that the Ancients were human.

This is kind of an abstract point, but - all the definite Ancient Age ruins are weird, monolithic, inhuman labyrinths. As we aren’t meant to know if the Ancients were human or not, this would make good sense, as the places seem very alien to us.

However, all the “other” ruins look like they were probably built by humans - their arches and pillars generally echo ancient Greek or Roman architecture. If the Imperial Capital was a ruined Ancient Age city as you suggested, that would suggest that the Ancients were definitely human. (Well, to me, that really does look like a human city.) As we know, however, the Ancients were not definitely human…[/quote]

I agree about the Ancients not being definitely human, but you have to take into consideration that the ruins were controlled by drones, and they were humanoid creatures. So I wouldn’t call the ruins “inhuman”. You can even see stairs and small hallways in the ruin of episode 6 (PD Orta).

20

I don’t think we can be so sure about all those ruins being armament production facilities. Certainly Uru was a Drone production facility and genetic design lab, PDO Episode 6 (Legacy) was a Drone production facility, and the Cradle was an armament production facility - but beyond that, the other Ancient Age ruins could have been just about anything.

A few things give me the impression that the Ancient Age’s ruins could have been all-purpose living / research / production plants, and that the Ancients might not normally live in cities as we know them. At any rate, the one confirmed Ancient Age city - The Fallen Ground - does conform to the typical white-stone-black-lines motif which is definitely Ancient Age. (The ruined bridge, which is the only vaguely intact bit of the city, is of that standard design.)

To be honest, up until PDO I had always assumed the “other” ruins to have been built by the Ancients, at simply an earlier stage than the more sophisticated white-black ruins. With PDO announcing that the Ancient Age was such a ridiculously long time ago, though, I now find it hard to believe that simple stone monuments could have lasted so long.

After all, the ruins of real-life ancient civilisations have aged badly after only a few thousand years. Wouldn’t it stand to reason that stone ruins in the harsh PD environments would have been reduced to negligible dust over a 10,000 year timeline?