Monsters Ball... invitation only? (I don't believe so)

When discussing the monsters in their role as the agents of The Will of the Ancients the specification of pure-types is routinely added by posters (arbitrarily I will argue) in an exclusive context. Indicating a widespread belief that only pure-types factor into the Towers/Sestren’s system of control. A view for which I find absolutely no concrete evidence, and only speculative implication.

I have read a majority of the theories and debates in Seekers’ Stronghold and this is an assumption the most vociferous established contributors seem to share, which is concerning to me. It’s also something of a surprise to me since it’s contrary to what I had always considered fairly self-evident, as such this post isn’t something I would call a theory since it’s not about an independant idea. I must present this as a direct challenge to the status quo.

First and foremost, and by all means correct me if I’m wrong about this, within all of the relevant narations/accounts that give us our understanding of the monster oppression of humanity, not once is it expressly stated “pure-types”. Not anything in the actual games at least. Much to the contrary, the clear majority of strife and tragedy appears to be attributable to attacks by mutated-types, as the pure-types are most often portayed as sentries content to leave humans alone until they poke their noses somewhere the Ancients wouldn’t want.

The only reasons we even have the designations of pure-type and mutated-type are from the categorisation of enemies in Saga and Orta, and a few documents that are never presented as conclusive, but rather the echoes of uncertain speculation from unknown individuals within the Panzer Dragoon world.

If anything the following two examples from different parts of the Orta Encyclopedia are explicitly discouraging us from regarding the conclusions as fact. Posing questions about the mutant origins so as not to give us impirical information, but perhaps simply to reinforce the true complexity of this world.

Researchers have categorized these
creatures into two types:
“pure types” and “mutated types.”

All of these adaptations that
the mutated types have acquired brings
up a perplexing question:
have the mutated types “un-evolved”?
It appears that they are forgetting
their initial purposes as weapons and
are slowly becoming more and more like
the natural organisms of the world,
in contrast with the pure types who do
not fear death and serve only to destroy.

Unfortunately, there is no way to know
the truth.

Perhaps this is how the world was
destined to be.
Only time shall tell, and even then,
the answer may not be known until
humans are long gone from this world.

And even in all of the speculation there are no direct hints that the inhabitants of the game world think of the mutated monsters as any less representative of TWotA than the pure-types, but only as less certain death. The people fear and loathe ALL monsters, and if the pure-types were actually somehow opposed to the mutated monsters it would add a very odd question to the seekers’ motivations. Why would they be so focused on the Towers and other ancient ruins if to destroy them only meant the mutants were even less controlled?

Well I have other supporting arguments but this is more than long enough already, I’ll just brush on one thing I’ve stated elsewhere which is the unlikely scenario that the towers would be rebuilding the ecosystem (if you agree with those terms as applicable to the Sestren mandate) without a template for both flora AND fauna. And how are the pure-type monsters contributing to that template in regards to the environment, if they apparently do nothing but kill?

OK, so there it is. The last thing I need to stress is that this in no way precludes any other theories and possibilities. For example Robert Frazer’s War Without End theory contains many ideas that could be seen as arguments directly alternative to mine, but they are largely based on conjecture. Even so most of that conjecture could still be made within this alternate context.

I’m not arguing for an absolute state of affairs, I consider this as more like anti-conjecture. My assertion is that the assumed state of mutated monsters as entirely separate from the Sestren/Tower process is a serious misconception based on inference at best. Whereas there is a great weight of implication (at worst) to support the opposite. As such it is a more appropriate assumed state to launch other conjecture from.

I might be misunderstanding your point here (or at least parts of your point, I think,) so bear with me if any of this isn’t relevent; I’ll just try and explain why (as far as I know) people tend to interpret the storyline in the way you’ve described. I guess it really comes down to…

…different people considering different things to be “concrete evidence”, or in fact, evidence at all. I’m fairly certain that the reason most people don’t consider the mutated monsters to be a part of the Sestren / Tower masterplan is because they’re not literally implied to be part of that plan in the games themselves, and we’re not given a compelling reason to believe that they’re meant to be a part of it. But of course, people are bound to have different takes on what a “compelling reason” is as well…

To sum up the situation as far as I’m aware of it, though, mutated monsters are described more than once in the scripts as being the outcome of Darwinistic evolution (genetic mutation and inevitable adaptation), and they’re never actually described as being a part of Sestren’s plan. Now it might be that the script doesn’t emphatically say they’re not a part of Sestren’s plan, but as their very nature of being evolutionary “mutations” seems to imply otherwise anyway, it’s understandable that people will think of them as being unconnected to Sestren, the Towers, the Ancients etc.

Now this is where I think I might be misunderstanding your point Heretic; what you’re saying is I think quite true, but as far as I can see it isn’t really evidence that applies to this issue. As you say, the mutated monsters are presented as the dominant life-form of the planet, and humans struggle against them constantly to survive, but the storyline doesn’t connect this to Sestren or the Ancients’ plan; instead, the mutant type monsters are depicted as primitive, ravenous animals, so their troubling of humankind is presented as a survival of the fittest, an example of a natural food chain rather than an insidious control method related to the Towers and Sestren.

As we see in PDS (and to some extent in PD1) though, when a Tower releases pure-types to oppress humankind, things play out very differently; when Azel awakens the Tower of Uru, it instantly releases death-squads of pure-types that spread out through the surrounding lands culling human populations quickly and viciously; they annihilate the Imperial presence in the area, force the Seekers to abandon their base and “ran rampant” over the outer regions of the Empire. The PD1 Tower performs a similar action after going active, sending out waves of pure-types that immediately start destroying the Imperial capital. Now most other pure-types that we see in the series really are just sentries as you’ve said, but the big differentiation we’re given is that pure-types always directly carry out whatever ancient purpose / programming they’ve been given, while mutated monsters are wild beasts that act of their own accord.

Hmm, well bear in mind that most people of the PD world don’t think of “the will of the ancients” at all; other than the Seekers, they just have various warped and incomplete views of the Ancient Age being a time when gods walked the earth and so on.

I’d say the reasoning is that when a Tower goes active (see PD1, PDS,) it’s an unstoppable force that neither the Empire not the Seekers nor anyone else can hope to stand against, whereas the peoples of the world are much better equipped to deal with the weaker mutated monsters that normally roam the environments. The Towers (and the pure-types they can release) are presented as a sort of Sword of Damocles in effect, a threat constantly hanging over the head of humankind, ready to fall if Sestren deems it appropriate. That’s why the Seekers were determined to go after Sestren, as far as I know.

Again we might be on different wavelengths here, but it’s stated in the script that the Towers release pure types to kill humans in order to stop humans from threatening the environment themselves; this seems to make sense, as if humankind’s advanced technologies almost destroyed the world in the first place, the best way to preserve the world would be to make sure that humankind is never in a position to do the same again. (And of course, all the other pure-types guarding ancient sites around the world make sure that humans can’t threaten the rule of the ancient technologies directly). As for the flora and fauna issue, it would really depend on the nature of the Towers’ rejuvenation process, which we really know very little about; we know nothing, really, not how it was carried out or what the world was really like beforehand or what the world was meant to end up like after the process was finished. It might be that the Towers were intended (and able) to maintain the environment solely for humans without the necessity of other animal species, or that the birds and the fish and other harmless species that we see in the games are the only animals that the Ancients wanted to exist in their new world, or that all the other “normal” animals had been wiped out in the ancient wars, or that they’d been wiped out by the mutated monsters as they spread across the lands, or that the PD world didn’t even have normal animals to begin with (it’s meant to be a fictional other planet, after all), and so on, and so on…

Anyhow, I know I haven’t quoted an awful lot of sources for the storyline stuff in this post, so if you can’t see where I’m conming from with any of these points let me know and I’ll try and find something more tangible to back it up…

[quote=“Lance Way”]

… I’m fairly certain that the reason most people don’t consider the mutated monsters to be a part of the Sestren / Tower masterplan is because they’re not literally implied to be part of that plan in the games themselves, and we’re not given a compelling reason to believe that they’re meant to be a part of it.[/quote]

Well, essentially my argument is that the games do indeed imply all monsters are somehow part of the system, specifically because of what is never said. Whether that implication is literal or not I’m not quite sure how to judge. But since you have put it in those terms, it completely escapes me where the opposing view has ever been literally implied either, so the question remains.

Just how the mutants do fit into the scheme is of course conjecture, and if it becomes appropriate I will happily spill my ideas on that, but that they don’t fit in at all constitutes pure conjecture in the first place. So that could only distract from my point. As you said Lance, concrete evidence as well as compelling reasons can be subject to individual interpretation, but I hope we are at least capable of agreeing on what constitutes conjecture?

Because then, rather than argue over whether your arguments are compelling or not, I’ll simply ask if you can illustrate the compelling reasons for your view without it being dependant on conjecture. I’m not concerned with why things could be that way, I’m able to think of many reasons myself. For now I am only concerned with the absolute lack of references to directly suggest they are that way.

Described? Only for the purposes of argument I will object to the word as lending an impirical connotation to your statement, but yes mutated monsters are depicted as breeding and adapting, quite rapidly and effectively it seems. But as I have already stated they are never specified as mutated-types outside of a technicality of classification, or in those certain documents presented as academic speculation. And it’s true, it has never been stated they aren’t part of the Tower scheme, emphatically or otherwise.

I can completely understand how people may infer the mutated monsters are unconnected to TWotA, once again I’m arguing it is all inference at best. The only way the monsters’ evolution can be considered to imply this is if one had a specific view of how Sestren operates that’s necessarily based on conjecture in the first place. And to reconnect to one of my core points I’m going to be pedantic and point out that “pure-types”, as such, are not actually described as part of Sestren’s plan either.

The storyline doesn’t connect it? It IS the story! The very anchor of our motivation as a player was to free humanity from the tyrany of the monsters, and it’s the storyline that never makes any distinction between pure-types and mutated monsters. If it weren’t for a couple of speculations about how mutated-types evolve no one would have ever thought twice about them as also being the “monsters” that Sestren employs to oppress humanity. There is literally nothing else that even remotely brings it into question. And I can only repeat, “pure-types”, as such, are not specified as the control method of Sestren either. It’s just “monsters”.

I believe those events qualify as humans pokeing their noses somewhere the Ancients wouldn’t want. Certainly those Towers going active are very singular occurences in the storyline, even otherwise unprecedented in the Empire’s history.

You’ve hit on a key word there, since we don’t know what Sestren couldn’t accomplish indirectly. Do mutated-types act purely of their own accord? Or can that be grouped in with other inferences people have drawn?

Umm, TWotA is a convenient metaphor for the overall purpose and process of Sestren and it’s various agents. That said, bear in mind that we wouldn’t know anything about TWotA were it not for the people of the PD world who do indeed think of TWotA. Since they’re also, obviously enough, the ones we’ve recieved all our information from then… I don’t think we need that other bear in our minds really?

[quote=“Lance Way”]

[quote=“Heretic Agnostic”]
The people fear and loathe ALL monsters, and if the pure-types were actually somehow opposed to the mutated monsters it would add a very odd question to the seekers’ motivations. Why would they be so focused on the Towers and other ancient ruins if to destroy them only meant the mutants were even less controlled?[/quote]

I’d say the reasoning is that when a Tower goes active (see PD1, PDS,) it’s an unstoppable force that neither the Empire not the Seekers nor anyone else can hope to stand against, whereas the peoples of the world are much better equipped to deal with the weaker mutated monsters that normally roam the environments. The Towers (and the pure-types they can release) are presented as a sort of Sword of Damocles in effect, a threat constantly hanging over the head of humankind, ready to fall if Sestren deems it appropriate. That’s why the Seekers were determined to go after Sestren, as far as I know.[/quote]

Well, see my earlier reply about those events being singular. The question you are responding to was rhetorical in this intent, however it kind of makes my point, it’s a question that solicits a great deal of conjecture to make peace with.

I’m just stopping you there because it’s a perfect illustration of why this has been getting to me. The script does not state that, ever. You have inserted the specification of pure-types in a context that the script never has. Again correct me if I’m actually wrong, ANYONE, because I’m serious I cannot think of even one example. Certainly there are specific instances portrayed with pure-types, that is not my argument. The general narations from which we learn of Sestren’s mandate never draw a discrepancy between types, it’s just monsters.

Of course, as you say we really don’t know so no matter what either of us say it’s conjecture. I would argue with you about it all week on that level if it was relevant for me here, but as I said it’s part of my supporting arguments for how things could be one way. For the moment it has no bearing on things assumed to be another way.

While I fully realize there is no overwhelming evidence for things to precisely conform to the view I have presented, I maintain there is far less to directly support the notion mutated monsters are necessarily aberrations relative to TWotA.

Ah, right; I see your point much more clearly now. When I have some time I’ll try and address all of those things you’ve brought up, but for now I’ll just answer one fairly fundamental-looking point:

What you’re referring to, of course, is things like this:

This world has been molded into
its current shape by the powers
of a series of ruins we call
Towers. The Towers control the
environment, breed monsters,
and control human populations.

…and this:

At the same time the Towers purify
the air, water, and soil to
enlarge inhabitable areas,
they employ monsters to remove
elements that threaten the
environment, including humans.

…where the script literally uses the term “monsters” rather than “pure-type monsters”. I’m almost certainly pointing out the obvious here, so sorry about that, but most people (myself included) are taking “monsters” to implicitly mean “pure-type monsters” here because of the context; as in this context, the full term “pure-type monster” wouldn’t be necessary. Arguably wouldn’t be necessary, anyway - I’ll try and justify:

  • Pure-type monsters are described as being living weapons designed by the Ancients. They were manufactured (and according to some bits of script, they still are manufactured) inside Ancient Age ruins, and stationed at Ancient Age facilities as guardians, which is why they’re almost always encountered in those sorts of places in the games. The pure-types were created through the same technological principles as other ancient creations, which is why they look the way they do: just like the Ancients’ antigravity engines, the Ancients’ buildings and the Drones the Ancients made. The descriptions of pure-types make them out to be automatons of sorts, following only their original “programming” or the guidance of other pure-types.

  • Mutated monsters are described as being the products of genetic adaptation, the descendants of pure-types that have succumb to genetic mutations which have ultimately made them more like animals: they eat while pure-types don’t, they reproduce while pure-types don’t, and so on. This explains why the mutated monsters look so very different from their pure-type predecesors (and indeed, all of the Ancients’ direct creations), and the descriptions of mutated monsters make them out to be wild beasts, not subject to ancient programming or control as we’re reminded the pure-types are.

  • Throughout the PDS script, “monster” is often used to describe whatever kind of monster is in question; the extra terms “pure-type” and “mutated” are only quite rarely added.

So, the point: why people are taking “monster” to mean “pure-type monster” in that context. Firstly, the Towers are producing the “monsters” in question. We’ve been told that pure-types are manufactured inside ancient facilities, and we’ve been told that mutated monsters are the genetically mutated, adapted descendants of pure-types; so this suggests that the monsters the Towers are creating will be pure-types.

Secondly, the Towers are coordinating the monsters and using them to carry out their goals. We’ve been told that pure-types are subject to the control of other ancient technologies, and we’ve been told that mutated monsters are essentuially wild animals not subject to any programming or control; so this also suggests that the monsters in question will be pure-types.

Thirdly, we never see mutated monsters in conjunction with a Tower; the monsters that pour out of the Tower in PD1, and Shelcoof in PD2, and the Tower of Uru in PDS are all pure-types. We never see mutated monsters in any Ancient Age facilities really, the one exception I can think of being the Underground Ruins of Uru, where all of the monsters had become mutated. Throughout the series, mutated monsters are associated with the wildernesses of the world while pure-types are associated with the Ancient facilities themselves.

Now couple this with my point that the PDS script uses the term “monster” not only to describe all monsters but any monsters being talked about at the time, and… I hope you can see where I’m coming from with all this. Because of what the storyline has already told us about mutated monsters and pure-type monsters, I don’t believe we need an extra two words before “monster” to deduce that those Tower descriptions are telling us about pure-type monsters.

Hmm, as I’ve got more time than I thought I did this morning, I’ll try and answer your other points too:

This all seems to come down to questions of authorial intent - the question of what we’re “really” meant to think after playing through the games - so I’ll explain why I’m not really doubting the existing descriptions of mutated monsters and pure-types (which the PDO encyclopedia sums up fairly nicely). To paraphrase the golden rule of working out authorial intent:

If the author tells you something, and does not otherwise tell you that it is incorrect and does not otherwise shown you that it is incorrect, you can be quite certain that they want you to believe it.

The scripts tell us that the two different kinds of monsters differ in the ways I’ve described above; to my knowledge we’re not given any other descriptions that contradict those ones, and we don’t see monsters behaving in a way that would lead us to believe those descriptions are incorrect. Applying the golden rule of authorial intent, that would mean that we’re probably meant to believe those descriptions, otherwise the writers wouldn’t have bothered writing them. (On the other hand, if you can think of any examples that genuinely do contract those descriptions, please let me know; I know my memory’s good but it’s hardly flawless.)

I think you might be writing these events off as unimportant far too quickly, and viewing this aspect of the storyline so differently seems to be the main reason your interpretation of the storyline differs so greatly from others’ (as you said above). If you’ll allow me to summarise the alternative interpretation (the somewhat accepted interpretation, as far as there seems to be one):

“This is what Towers do”. Or to expand on that a lot, “This is the threat that the Towers pose to humanity: they have armies of pure-types sleeping within them that they can release at a moment’s notice to crush humankind into submission, just as we see at the end of PDS and at the end of PD1. As this corresponds to what the Tower reports say about the Tower’s function - that they use monsters to reduce human populations - it seems that this is what those reports are referring to; this is how the Towers employ monsters to control human populations; nothing more.”

(Note the speech-marks: it’s quicker to summarise these interpretations as statements and put them in speech marks. I’m really not trying to sound arrogant or anything, just summarising the somewhat-accepted view because it seems like it might help.)

As you can see from my summary above, that isn’t everybody’s story: and I don’t agree that saving humankind from all monsters can be said to be the player’s ultimate motivation because the storyline never (to my knowledge) presents that as a realistic goal. After all, Edge’s destroying Sestren has no effect on the mutated monsters of the world; they just continue eating and terrorising humankind as they always have. All the destruction of Sestren appears to accomplish, as far as I’m aware, is a geological upheaval (while the planet adapts to not having a faulty life-support system grafted onto it,) and the assurance that the Towers are never going to be able to “do their thing” again.

Yeah, I’m also too tired to address all that for now Lance. But I will for the moment assert that you have significantly ignored my request for compelling reasons that are not dependant on conjecture. The majority of that content is once more in the form of paraphrasing the actual script elements that I will assure you I am plenty familiar with.

In the paraphrasing you have again promoted the results of past conjecture to a status of assumed truth, even if subtle in it’s execution. I have already aknowledged understanding the inferences people see for the separation of mutated monsters from TWotA, I don’t require any convincing on that level but I will resort to unloading my own conjecture here soon if I can’t escape that arena.

For now I’ll just demand qualification of some things:

Where is it stated, impirically and without a speculative flavor, that (all) mutated-types are literal decendants of pure-types? You present that as an assumed truth.

Where have we been explicitly told, or even directly referenced at all, that mutated-types are not subject to any form of control? You present that as an assumed truth.

We know that the Towers control monsters, and obviously they employ pure-types for very direct purposes, but where have we ever been shown them “creating” monsters? ANY monster? The pure-types just seem to be stored up in racks, waiting for activation. Can you show me any specific evidence of “breeding” or “analysis” coming into play with pure-types?

I will reiterate and stress my challenge, find me a specific reference outside of the speculative records that introduces even the slightest suggestion mutated monsters are excepted from the ancient-terror club in the minds of the citizens of Panzer Dragoon. That is the very heart of the story after all.

OK, just to make clear my previous post was being worked on before Lance’s last post.

To that post Lance, right now I’m only going to respond to the authorial intent angle. The principle is just as valid applied to what the author does not tell you. And in this instance “the author” does not, ever, tell us mutated monsters are aberrations from TWotA.

EDIT: Also I don’t understand how you think I’m writing the Tower events off as unimportant. My point was much the opposite in fact, they are singularly important.

Interesting discussion! It’s been implied that mutated monsters de-evolved from their pure type counterparts, and PD Saga clearly separates these creatures into two distinct categories whereby the term “mutated” says it all, while pure type creatures are still true to their original design (hence the addition of the term “pure” to their names), but also sometimes contain a mechanical element. What I always assumed was, since the Towers don’t seem to have any control over the mutated monsters, and since these creatures can co-ordinate themselves without outside guidance/Sestren to guild them, then they wouldn’t necessarily be a part of the ancients’ plan because the ancients couldn’t stop them from wiping out the last pockets of humanity.

Even at the beginning of Panzer Dragoon, a pure type guardian mercilessly butchers a borrower intruding on its domain, which suggests that these creatures weren’t exactly on friendly terms. Mutated strains could have been a part of the ancients’ plan to keep humans under control in the absence of the greater authority of the Towers, but the mutants’ loyalties seem to lay only with their hunger. Now unless the ancients assumed human beings could always survive in the face of this threat, there’s no way to guarantee keeping humans alive.

Rhua refers to the pure type creature guarding Azel’s excavation site as “a pure blooded one”, clearly implying that there was a known distinction at least among the Empire based on the roles they seem to play. It’s only pure type creatures that are said to be enraged by the presence of humans.

Could these mutated strains have served as similar “guardians of the ecosystem” as Craymen put it? Perhaps. However… wouldn’t they pose a threat to the very environment the ancients strove to protect, too?

I, personally, don’t think they were necessarily a part of the ancients plan. After all, playing god is like playing with fire, and if everything the ancients planned went to plan, they’d still be here, now wouldn’t they? We all know what happened to the ancients…


Categorically untrue Geoffrey, in implication at least, the exact term “enraged” may have only been used in a reference to pure-types but I don’t recall for certain. Now, those are all convincing arguments, as such, but once again you are also greatly paraphrasing the literal subject material using the reconstituted results of past conjecture. I have asked many very specific questions already, and I’m not getting many direct answers. But I will directly respond to some of your points.

To be precise it has been speculated that mutated-types are “de-evolving”, and if they were all direct decendants of pure-types that neccesitates a tremendous amount of supporting conjecture to resolve why these “pure” creations of the ancients would spontaneously generate organs for feeding and mating.

I would have to agree, the term “mutated” does say it all. Because what the term “mutated” does not say is “aberrated” or “perverted” or anything other than that they are, quite evidently, mutated. You are imposing a very narrow (if not uncommon) connotation onto a term which only directly implies a relative process.

What are “purebred” dogs for example? Technically they are the result of a process of mutation that has been influenced by an outside agenda. Of course Saga and Orta gategorize pure-types and mutated monsters differently, they are obviously different. Have I tried to say otherwise?

Why would they even have to be on friendly terms? I simply don’t understand that, the pure-types are sentries that keep unauthorised intruders out of their assigned areas. Even humans may be given duties that require violence against someone they were otherwise on friendly terms with. So even assuming that guardian was a direct agent of the Sestren faction a mutated monster clearly has no authorised business in that ruin.

[quote=“Geoffrey Duke”]Could these mutated strains have served as similar “guardians of the ecosystem” as Craymen put it? Perhaps. However… wouldn’t they pose a threat to the very environment the ancients strove to protect, too?

I, personally, don’t think they were necessarily a part of the ancients plan. After all, playing god is like playing with fire, and if everything the ancients planned went to plan, they’d still be here, now wouldn’t they?[/quote]

Umm, statistically speaking the mutated monsters appear to account for most of the environement, so I really don’t follow that assertion. The playing god bit is a curious argument, seeing as how that’s exactly the words that have been used before, even directly by you Geoffrey I believe, for what the Ancients are presumed to have done.

(EDIT: OK I misread what you were actually saying about the Ancients playing god Geoffrey.)

But I will extend the same challenge, if you do not believe they were necessarily a part of the ancients plan fine. I still have yet to be presented with an argument for them being necessarily alien to it that is not heavily based on conjecture.

Skimming this whole topic so far I come across a little rude, and though it is expressly a debate I should still say welcome Lance, Geoffrey. I really appreciate that you’re giving this the time of day.

One thing that I see I have not presented well at all is why I make a distinction between inference and implication in my first posts. I have used just “infer” in place of “draw inference” at times, to be clear I’m trying to imply that those are examples of extrapolation influenced by preexisting assumptions, rather than implications that can be argued as independantly valid.

And Lance, just to try to change things up a little let me put it this way.

Where does your assumption of context ultimately come from? Can you say you would have ever arrived at that context only from what is revealed from naration or actual characters in the STORY?

It might be more accurate to say that (nearly?) all pure-types will attack humans on sight, while the same is not true of all mutated types (Coolias, for instance). It’s hard to say whether the mutated types that do attack humans do so because of a left over drive from when they were pure types (to keep the human population in check) or for other reasons (territoriality, hunger, etc.). Not sure how relevant that is, just throwin’ it out there.

I would disagree with that. The fact is, we just don’t know. We don’t see the majority of attacks, and the accounts of these attacks aren’t useful, as you’ve said, because none of the accounts make a distinction between pure and mutated types. In fact, nearly all of the attacks that we have seen were perpetrated by pure types. These were almost all provoked, so they may be special cases, but it’s still something to think about.

Another interesting note on the use of the word monster: Every single animal we’ve seen in the PD world, aside from humans, is either a pure-type or mutated-type “monster.” However, the inhabitants of the world only refer to the dangerous ones as monsters. For example, they never call a Coolia a monster.

Bluefoot, I absolutely appreciate your point there obviously since it’s the flip side of what I’ve been saying. But also consider the fact that with the exception of a few major events, the majority of attacks we’ve witnessed directly are in the course of gameplay. We are being attacked all the time by mutated monsters. Though whether it is provoked is perhaps up for debate.

There is a fair amount of anecdotal support for the assertion as well. In the intro to Saga why would the distinction between “purebloods” and “half-breeds” be so concerning if the soldiers and hunters were accustomed to fighting the former?

This passage from the cinema in the destroyed seeker village:

Gash: …Among the seekers,

  dragons are seen as Messengers of the Gods. 

  Of course, if there were Gods, these villagers wouldn't  

  have been ripped to pieces in a feeding frenzy.  

If it was literally a feeding frenzy it would indicate these were definitely not pure-types.

I know coolias are referred to as domesticated monsters or something like, though I believe only in annotational context. But I’m going to take the liberty of paraphrasing what you said for my own ends as…

*Conversational use of the word “monster” is essentially in reference to any and all of the creatures that are attacking us all the time. *

Not necessarily. When Grig Orig is infested by pure-type monsters straight from the Tower, reference is made to its crew being eated alive:

[quote]Gash: Their crew is being eaten alive…

  I guess they couldn't stop them. 

  ...That ship's deck is covered with monsters.  

  Everybody's dead... 


Also, when I talked about “attacks” I was mainly referring to attacks on people other than the player. However, most of the attacks of this sort that we see were provoked in some way, so they may or may not be indicative of a usual monster attack.

It seems to me that mutated-types may be part of TWoTA. However, I think that they serve more to recreate/rejuvinate the ecosystem, rather than to specifically limit the human population. Regardless, when it comes to things like this, I just don’t think there’s enough explicit evidence to make a hard decision either way. It’s sort of like the debate over whether the Ancients were human.

Good point about the eaten alive quote, I guess I’ll just argue it comes across as more of a pure expression than my example. Especially as we aren’t given indication that telescope could actually see them being chowed on.

So basically, if we are to regard the data that pure-types do not need to eat, even lacking the means, as impirical then they obviously could not have been literally “eaten alive”.

But as the statement of mine you quoted makes allowance for, we can’t know the “feeding frenzy” was literal either. So in that sense the statement stands.

At any rate my purpose for this particular topic was never to convince others things are absolutely this way, though it makes the most sense to me obviously. I just needed to challenge what seemed to be a huge wall of assumption permeating nearly every other debate without even a hint of dissent.

Where exactly is this stated?

Orta > Encyclopedia > Pure Types:

< Pure-type Creatures >
The generic form for bio-engineered
creatures found inside ruins, and in
the borderlands surrounding the Empire.
They have very inorganic looking
features, and often do not have
biological external organs, such as eyes,
mouths, etc.
It is believed that they were created as
autonomous sentries of sorts, whose
sole purpose was to defend the ancient
ruins, before they became ruins.

They are usually in a dormant state,
almost as if hibernating.
However, if a human approaches, these
creatures will spring to life and will not
cease until destroyed, or their targets
are destroyed.
These creatures are also highly
photosynthetic, therefore do not require
any sort of digestive organs.

Most pure types remain exactly the same
as they were first designed, and are
living testaments to the awesome
destructive powers of the technology of
the Ancient Age.
Pure types are also sometimes referred
to as the “original species.”

And you got me there actually, it isn’t quite explicit that none of them have the means to eat, only that they have no need to.

See, this is where Orta really bugs me. It basically flat-out contradicts the earlier games. Just look at a Golia. That thing clearly has a mouth. Hell, look at the dragons.

Then again, there were no “Lagi-Snax” to collect in order to get the super rare Dragon Indigestion Berserk technique. :anjou_happy:

I think I smell the basis for the next PD game. :anjou_wow:

I just had a weird idea, and I want to make it clear this isn’t something I’m really arguing for but…

Are all of those monsters released by the Tower of Uru really pure-types? There’s of course every reason to think so but, the freaky looking winged things really don’t look like any other pure-types I can think of. (Excepting maybe dragons)

Maybe “researchers” have just never seen any of the bloodsucking-vampire-death-squad-types and lived to record it?