Kinect

I have to admit I wasn’t even tracking the discussion that closely, but I’ve skimmed the posts as they come and they made me tired regardless. As such I was responding to the totality of your attitude Al3xand3r, not really the individual points… because the individual points tended to be obtuse anyway.

And I was suggesting that you get a grip, because you were the one getting offended when other people wouldn’t follow your highly subjective rationales. No matter what was being proposed, you were responding with a platform rejection; but that kind of argumentation can always work both ways, there’s nothing technically stopping Kinect from using props or other control options as well as the camera and voice. So in the end it’s not about any of those technicalities, but just the experiences the platform actually delivers. :anjou_sigh:

That was obvious, since I had already suggested that Kinect was potentially better for things like dance games in one of my first replies. I wasn’t getting offended but thanks for worrying. And yes, I’ve made the point that Kinect could be used with a controller.

So…

It would seem then you are in ultimate agreement that Move is inherently a more precise aiming and instant-selection format.

Whereas Kinect is inherently a more versatile and reliable body-motion-tracking and voice command format.

Yet in either case they may broadly approximate the functionality of the others’ specialty.

If you can agree with that, then I’m failing to understand where there’s any other points of disagreement that can justify your evident volume of resistance to what others have been saying here?

Maybe if you had read the whole comments you would have understood. I dunno why I need to repeat my opinion when it’s all in this thread. Will it be read this time? TL;DR?

3D tracking for the wand(s) is very precise and has been displayed many times with 3D objects moving and interacting in 3D space with no issues whatsoever, right down to using the wand to precisely draw and write as if they have an invisible canvas in front of them (so, not with pointing, you can’t draw with a laser pointer type technology, it would amplify movements too much to keep it in full control, whereas the opposite is true for weapons aiming functions). It’s full body tracking that’s not been shown.

So, it doesn’t have to be just pointing and selecting as that precice 3D motion tracking can be used in tons of genres alongside a normal type controller. For example, a game like Red Steel 2 on Wii but with more 1:1 type motion control over the sword (on Wii it’s still mostly gesture based, unlike say, Wii Sports Resort’s swordplay, which also isn’t as precise as Move can be), while keeping full character control with an analog stick.

At the same time the player would be able to use pointing for use of ranged weapons and use buttons on both the left hand controller and the Move wand to replicate the actions everyone expects to have in FPS and action adventures these days, such as shooting, alternative fire shooting, iron sight/scope aiming, crouching, sprinting, sneaking, taking cover, changng weapons, grenade type and gadgets, climbing, initiating conversations, picking dialogue options, and all sorts of context sensitive actions, maybe wall running and other stunts and types of jumps, most done simply and intuitively with button presses while leaving only the “good” action stuff people will want to do as motion based control, ie, the sword fighting and the weapons aiming, and maybe a few more gestures here and there, like chucking or rolling grenades and reloading weapons which may not add much but aren’t obstrusive either, and would free up buttons for different uses that need more precision in terms of timing.

Of course it doesn’t have to be a sword either. It could be a physics enabled whip, flail, or whatever else. It doesn’t even have to be a weapon, anything you can hold in your hand like you hold the Move wand can be used in a game. It may not do full body tracking, but the wand Move itself is tracked perfectly accurately so anything your character holds in his hand can behave like the Move behaves in yours, in full 3D space.

Will the Kinect be precise enough to replicate sword fighting like that while you sit down and hold a regular Xbox 360 controller on your left hand to maintain character control in complex 3D space (rather than 2x2 that your room area or whatever is)? We don’t really know, I’ve not seen evidence of that so far but I won’t say it’s not possible for sure. Will it be precise enough to have pointing based weapon aiming? We don’t know that for sure, although Child of Eden’s videos show it’s not quite there, not yet (much like the dance games quote from Sony you were looking for?). Will it be as comfortable and intuitive to only press buttons on the left hand to initiate all those types of actions I mentioned that exist in pretty much every modern action adventure or first/third person shooter? Not really, that’s why we have buttons on both hands with standard controllers.

Will it be better to make many of those actions full body motion based so that players crouch to crouch, jump to jump, sprint to sprint, speak to initiate conversations, speak to respond, etc? Not in my opinion, that would sure be a workout for games designed to immerse you and thus play for a few hours at a time. And would simple gestures be a good replacement for many such actions? Not beyond things like reloading and chucking grenades as I mentioned for Move, otherwise it’ll be both abstract and unintuitive.

At most, for such “core” games I only see Kinect having normal gamepad control and maybe offering gestures and headtracking on top for things like giving orders to teammates, hand signal style, while lacking everything else Move could offer in such games (and Move with its pointing could at least give orders with some kind of interface as in Rainbow Six 3 on the PC or the visor selection function in Metroid Prime 3).

Hence, for the type of games I play (and let’s not forget that such action and shooting elements are increasingly more common in more genres as time goes by, such as RPG type games) and the type of games I see being popular for gamers (hey, I also play Wii Sports Resort and the occasional music game with company, but that’s not the type of gaming I call my hobby), Move type technologies are in my opinion more versatile in offering them with substantial enhancements, while keeping most of the comfort and intuitiveness gamers want (outside under blanket gaming I suppose) and only really fail when it comes to conventional/retro things like Street Fighter, which the Kinect would also not do well, since they’re experiences designed for complex button combinations.

Maybe Microsoft will release a Kinect controller down the line that will fix a lot of what I see lacking in it. Maybe they won’t. This is what I think currently and if games and other products that show different potential show up I’ll change my mind. Maybe Gears of War Kinect that they’ll be showing soon will have worked magic. I’ve not seen it yet.

PS: I forgot to mention much about voice commands, but voice commands have little to do with Kinect’s new technologies. All you need for such a feature is a decent quality microphone, available with headsets or other hardware for all systems out there (and quite popular for things like online gaming, many 360 owners already had a headset), yet they haven’t been used much beyond novelties like EndWar because people just don’t want them, for the most part. Recognition and implementation is simply up to the software so if Kinect ever offers voice based experiences people want, nothing stops the other companies from doing the same, as they have the hardware capable for it.

Thank you for clarifying… basically what I already characterized Al3x?

That post made a very good case for how Move and Kinect are not trying to deliver the same experience. Yet whenever Solo tried to make any point about what Kinect is focused on, the character of your response is “oh but Move can do that too!”

As I already said, that argument works equally well both directions. And so you’ve only been very obtuse again, with a one sided evangelizing of what Move can do best that Kinect perhaps cannot. As what Kinect does best, Move also cannot do as well.

Well no, I don’t think what I wrote basically amounts to simply “better pointing” as you wrote, but sure, if that’s how you want to see it. And again, I had already said certain things Kinect may do better since my very first replies where I mentioned dance games. Where I said “Move can do that too” it most likely can, such as the Forza demonstration that, regardless of how it was achieved, amounted to basic headtracking as a result. You’ll notice I wasn’t even 100% positive on what Kinect can’t do since we’ve yet to see the full capabilities of either technology, even though the opposing argument held the position that, if we haven’t seen the Move do something yet, then it certainly can’t…

^^^I meant you clarified the attitude I had already characterized… ^and that clarification only continues. You’re always willing to focus on some technicality or* semantics* and ignore the points of intent; whenever those points are too inconvenient to your persuasion.

The conceptual packaging of Move is essentially as a better Wiimote. Plus the existing functionality of the Eye of course, but that’s the experience being sold.

The conceptual packaging of Kinect is something very different from that. And so again, whatever approximations of that experience are also technically possible on PS3 or even Wii are all moot points, if anything deviating too much from that package may represent a less reliable / generally inferior experience overall.

Kinect is collecting more data than a simple camera ever could, and even with the decades of research MS is drawing on the software still faces serious challenges interpreting that data reliably. So any notion that the Move hardware, as is, will ever be satisfyingly viable for the same highest levels of functionality is absurd. And so, AGAIN, Kinect and Move are packaged to deliver completely distinct EXPERIENCES.

Is it so hard to simply accept that?

Is it so hard to accept that for what I enjoy most in gaming, Move seems more appropriate, that this is the only thing I’ve been saying since the first replies, and that I never said Kinect can’t do other things better? Especially since the discussion started with a Saga-like game in question, and went on to other specific examples of games and features? As for how far experiences will deviate with this different direction, that remains to be seen, as current software doesn’t, much, but I won’t claim it’s set in stone.

I can wholeheartedly accept your preference for the Wii/Move functionality, I suspect I may even share that preference myself in the foreseeable future. But up till now I haven’t said a single thing against, or in any way pertaining to your preference, have I?

Regardless of where the discussion started, the last half of it seemed dominated by your labored technicalities to belittle the proficiencies of Kinect.

I was talking about my preferences and how the different technologies cater to games and experiences these include, so of course I had little praise for Kinect as I currently don’t see how it can greatly benefit the type of games I personally enjoy the most, although as I said that could very well change if they show different software utilizing it in ways I haven’t considered. I didn’t belittle anything, I said what I prefer and why. That why included examples of how Move can be used in ways that I don’t see Kinect able to.

And Kinect can also be used in ways Move won’t be able to… rriiiiigghht??

holds breath

Are you implying I said that’s not the case and will pretend you breathe a sigh of relief if I answer “yes” to that, as if I’ll have finally accepted a fact I previously disputed? Well, read my previous comments to find out if I think so, and if those ways matter to my preferences, I don’t see why I need to repeat again and fuel more sarcastic remarks.

Kinect hacked to work with World of Warcraft:
kotaku.com/5719996/kinect-hacked … f-warcraft

If anything, this offers an example of how Kinect could work with free roaming games. I’m not entirely convinced that Kinect is suited to this sort of game, but the potential is interesting nonetheless.

I wish more homebrewers tried being intuitive and practical rather than just the first to “support” a game. To me it’s an example of how Kinect doesn’t work for such games. More like this, less like this please (although that’s quite the achievement, heh).

We had a fun night with Kinect for the our videopodcast. It was so much fun, we even loved titles like Kinectimals. It’s perfect for dancing games - I like Dance Evolution even better than Dance Central, it’s more for the DDR crowd with familiar Naoki songs and everything.

People who wonder how they are supposed to play Halo on this don’t really get the point. It’s all about new concepts, not forcing motion controls for franchises which play perfectly with a joypad.

Well, I’m not wondering, just making the same point, that it doesn’t offer much for the gaming I enjoy where other motion controls in my opinion do (while also being able to offer new experiences in their own ways), and that I don’t have much interest in the current so called new experiences. I don’t deny it can be fun with the right company, friendly competition in the sports or dance games and all, but then that says more about the company than that I want to make a hobby out of that, as we’d probably have just as much fun with something else in place of Kinect. Like, what if you were playing a Move table tennis game instead of the Kinect game in the beginning of your video (cool stuff btw, though I didn’t understand shit)? Would the experience be worse because you’d be holding a Move in your hand instead of slap thin air? I just don’t see that. Design choices aside of course, the Move table tennis game can be more sim-y and less casual which could make for a furstrating beginner experience, although it has many aid options to enable and get it closer to the simple fun something like Wii Sports or Kinect offer.