Did some edits while you were replying, might wanna reread.
Anecdotal evidence ftw…
So what, his head doesn’t also go down when he crouches? And yes, it’s a waste of resources for such a feature, why do they need to know what his arms and legs are doing when what’s important is simply the position of his eyes?
[quote=“Al3xand3r”]Full body gameplay was already shown with just the Eyetoy, what hasn’t been shown (which doesn’t mean it isn’t possible) is 3D movement in that type of gameplay with Move as that game was on a 2D plane. Which doesn’t mean it’s not possible, at least to some degree, as with the excellent accuracy of the wands you can possibly do things to counter the lesser body tracking, if it is lesser. You should probably check youtube for tech demos like this, there were various extensive presentations but I cba to find them…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOvc3Ap0p4A)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hajHZvKUzE4)
In the two tech demo videos you linked, the camera recognizes his head, and the wands help detect where the two arms are. The rest of the limbs appear to simply be displayed as a real time video. If this is the case, then it seems you couldn’t have a game where you a virtual character is displayed with 1:1 movement like in SpacePop (the bubble game in Kinect Adventures). Would you agree with this? I’m not saying that this makes for better or worse gameplay, I’m just saying that this is something Kinect is capable of that I have yet to see Move demonstrate.
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In real life, if you wanted to look closely at the back of a car, you would probably crouch down. The Kinect is simulating these movements, to add realism (and some might say, to make it more fun). This is what Kinect was designed to do… “You are the controller”. It may use up a few extra resources in the process, but the isn’t any noticeable framerate or graphical issues on the screen as a result, so does it really matter if extra resources are used in this case?[/quote]
I didn’t claim those videos show that exact thing, perhaps reread what you quote.
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I don’t think you understood what I typed, perhaps reread what you quote.
Relax, I’m not claiming you did. 
I was just making a point about what Kinect can do that I haven’t seen demonstrated with Move.
You said “what’s important is simply the position of his eyes”. There could be a game where this is the only important thing, but Forza 4 has taken this a step further by simulating the crouching and walking movements. You could recreate a similar experience with a standard controller or just face detection, Kinect is simply taking advantage of the other movements it can detect.
Your eyes move to the same exact positions to have the same exact viewing angles whether the game tracks your legs and arms or not. It doesn’t need to track your legs and arms to get the exact same result in game. I dunno what’s hard to get.
Pure headtracking demonstration without any body tracking. Same result as Forza.
Viewing angles is the whole point of tracking heads as it’s where you view things from.
Realistically, you’re not going to be able to look all around the car (all sides) just by moving your head. You’d have to move your legs around it as well. That’s what the Forza demo is demonstrating, legs and crouching, similar to how you’d view the car in real life (although with restrictions as you get near to the edge of the screen).
I get what you’re saying, it would be possible to do something similar on the DSi just by tracking the head, but part of the experience is actually moving your body and seeing the feedback on the screen.
Doesn’t moving your legs to go around the car also move your head and isn’t your head the important part as that’s what gives you the view you want?! Seriously, wtf…
The video I linked has practically no difference from the Forza demo, except instead of a car model you have the target models. The guy does all the same movements, crouching and moving around with his whole body, forward and back, left and right, or wherever, which results in a different view for his eyes since they’re attached to his moving body.
Crouching = your head goes 1m lower than it was, tracking the head is all you need to get the exact same viewing position and angle as with tracking everything.
I’m not disagreeing, Kinect simply offers a different way of controlling the camera, with your full body instead of your head.
Let me put it this way: to me, the player, it doesn’t matter what the device is detecting, my head or my body. Efficiency is an internal, programming issue that doesn’t matter to the player. What matters is how my physical actions correspond to the movement on screen. If it does that by just detecting my head, great, so long as it “feels” like I’m controlling it with my body.
That’s what I’ve been saying so I dunno why you think the Forza demonstration was any different to the headtracking videos. You can’t even know what Forza tracks, all you see is the result, which is the same regardless, not what goes on with the technology. It was all about viewing angles and you were all “you wouldn’t see the whole car just with head movement” or saying things like “it simulates crouching” or whatever other movement, when headtracking also isn’t restricted just to static body with head movement but to any movement that moves the head with it, and results in the same viewing angles as full body tracking, if that’s what Forza even does. To the end user it’s indistinguishable when all you do with it is what’s seen in Forza. In other games it may be able to do much more, we’ll see what type of games are developed in the future, but I was discussing the video you linked. You asked if it’s possible with things other than Kinect, and it is, because the result is a basic headtracking result, achievable with any camera. Although of course not every creator has been able to put out equal quality tracking algorithms, not everyone has Microsoft’s funds, but that’s software, interchangable & upgradable.
Get a grip Al3x! You’re being typically absolutist about this, and do you expect people to just agree “oh you’re right, Kinect is useless overpriced garbage, every other motion control is better…”
I was trying to find an article where someone from Sony made the point Dance Central is doing virtually the same thing as an older Eye game, couldn’t track it down… but the funny thing to me is that he was characterizing Kinect as “not ready” technology, yet one of his illustrations about Dance Central is the fact it doesn’t use skeletal tracking, and the ‘only’ reason it works out better than the Eye game is because the depth map allows for reliable isolation in most background/lighting conditions.
So for that point he seemed to be making the case that the Eye wasn’t actually ready to do that sort of game, but Kinect now is.
Remember I was around when you were predicting failure for the 360 itself, and honestly you’re coming across with the same sort of wishful anticipation now. Kinect has it’s share of failings and drawbacks, but it’s still the most versatile single motion-peripheral, precisely because it’s just about potential, and doesn’t have to be used any particular way. And the point I had for referencing the Eye: even if you have systems being used for virtually the same function, if one can do it much more reliably than the other… then they aren’t actually delivering the same experience are they?
Alex, I was not claiming that “you wouldn’t see the whole car just with head movement”, nor that the end result is exclusive to Kinect games. And I realise that other devices might be able to simulate crouching and walking forwards and backwards (via head movement), but the whole setup seems more natural in a Kinect game due to the device being designed to detect body movement in a large area of floor space.
It seems we missed each others points, let’s just move the discussion on, yeah?
Indeed, it’s a standalone setup that isn’t trying to reproduce the same experiences delivered by controller based games.
[quote=“The Ancient”]Get a grip Al3x! You’re being typically absolutist about this, and do you expect people to just agree “oh you’re right, Kinect is useless overpriced garbage, every other motion control is better…”
[/quote]
Its on the X-Box , what did you expect ? . I really don’t know why solo wastes his time, even trying to have a debate on the matter.
Where did I predict failure for Kinect? The discussion has absolutely nothing to do with how well it will do in the market, we already know it’s actually selling well. I was discussing specific features, if they’re possible with the competing technologies, and throwing my two cents in of what I find to be a better solution for motion controls for what I find to be gaming that suits me (and likely others around here, given the forum this is). As for the reliability and versatility comments, they sound like you’re the one with the wishful anticipation TA, unless you’ve confirmed it. But yes, to answer your question, if reliability varies, then the better reliability wins, for that one specific thing that reliability varies on (rather than full feature set wise), sure.
Dancing games. Perhaps Kinect will do them better. To me and the type of games I play it’s a non issue. I discussed games that were in the discussion, I discussed the potential of actually having characters navigating environments as you tend to do in most games, and what I believe is the best suited technology for that due to the features they include (tranditional inputs on top of motion for systems other than Kinect), and I didn’t discuss the full capabilities of either in detail as they are probably impossible to know until say, 3 years past release.
When the most you have to add in a discussion is to tell someone you remember them being wrong about something (does that imply you’ve never been wrong about anything?), something unrelated at that (or with the other TA in the frame, to imply someone’s an unconditional hater or other plain bullshit), you’re doing it wrong really.
I don’t have to imply at all, as The Ancient knows , you picking and finding any Fault with anything related to a MS console is nothing new and just carrying over from your dislike of the X-Box . It’s so very rich from you, the one that loves to label people NCL haters for disliking the Wii
But if it makes you feel better I’m not a fan of Natal at all, or motion controls games being used the standard controller. To me games are best played with a normal standard pad unless its some a game that isn’t quite the standard game say like Rockband or a finishing game
Where it would lend it’s self, to having/needing a special controller or some add on controller like a Rod.
I’m playing and loving Donkey Kong Returns, but the motion controls just get in the way. Just wish I could play the game with the classic controller.
It to me , is a classic case of motion control just added for the shake of it , like with the motion control parts in Drakes on the PS3
[quote=“Team Andromeda”]
I don’t have to imply at all, as The Ancient knows[/quote]
No, I don’t think anyone “knows” anything like that, it’s all in your (and, true, possibly others’) head. As for what you think of Natal, why would that make me feel better? This isn’t a contest, where the more people agree with any point you make the more likely you’re to win. What’s “rich” is that you jump in discussions you have no interest in just to talk shit about me (and Nintendo, since you bring up biases) much more often than I’ve jumped in discussions just to talk shit about MS (which hasn’t really happened). You know, like you just did here, even though you have no interest in motion controls of any sort, and all you came in the thread to do was to quote someone and tell him and Solo, basically, to not bother discussing with Al3xand3r. Why? Does it hurt you when that happens, or what is the problem? It’s just a forum thread. Maybe you should have more faith in individuals and let them do what they want, which could very well be to waste their time in discussions of little meaning and consequence. You do a lot of that too.
Hell, in another recent thread I even said something along the lines of Project Draco being potentially good (hell, I’m the one who first pimped that game in these forums, and it was plenty others who expressed disappointment on it being for Kinect, not myself) after seeing promising videos of Child of Eden (which I also commented on positively) so maybe I don’t just hate Kinect (and thus the 360) and wouldn’t mind seeing good games I’m interested in for it, even if I still believe it can’t do a lot of what I find interesting about gaming (in ways I find it interesting in). That would be surprising, huh? But don’t mind me, just ignore everything positive I ever say about MS related products (like the fact I use an Xbox 360 controller on my PC, alongside Windows 7), focus on anything negative I might have said (and maybe even pretend I said things 100x worse than I actually did), and keep living in delusions. Whatever works for you TA.
LOL
I never knew you owned a 360, My GOD I got that one wrong.
Have you finished ?
Its not like the so called NCL haters have talked up the likes of Mario Galaxy now s it ? . Difference is they buy the Hardware and play the games. Don’t give lectures , for the man that so many view and expressions on Kenzan Vs Bourne, only to never own the hardware to play them on, much less the games.
What does owning the hardware have to do with anything? You can’t have an interest in anything without putting down cash for it? I already said many times before that I played games without owning the hardware, be it Sony, MS, or past Nintendo platforms (since Wii is my first since the original Game Boy, I’m such a fanboy, LOL) that I never got to own, but you keep ignoring this just to bring up the same bullshit every single time. Money isn’t infinite, you know. I also played through Panzer Dragoon Orta without ever owning an original Xbox, what’s so weird about that? People play games and platforms they don’t own all the time, I’m not special. And if I’m not mistaken the Bourne discussion had more to do with the engine it’s based on, that plenty other games use, especially on PC… I’m not the one being irrational or holding grudges… Hell, you even scolded me for not purchasing Valkyria Chronicles, even though I pruchased the sequel, lol. Get a grip.
Please, let’s keep this thread on topic (Kinect) and not turn it into a flame war.
It shows you are interested in it for one, and what interest would an Add-On be to people who don’t the console ?.
Anyone can say that and its fair enough. But when you’re giving detailed impressions and having debates with people , then in most cases, nothing will latch or compare to one playing a game in their own house in their own team To build up a fair and overall impression , more so when some games in question are 30 hrs RPG epic’s
Yes I’m a big fan of my PSP. But with Val I think been downgraded too much. The graphics (massive part of the original charm() and controls just are not what they are onthe PS3. I know the reasons why SEGA chose to it .
But feel it should have been Multi Platform made for both the PS3 and PSP if not the 360 too , and like I said I don’t enjoy playing BIG RPG’s on any handheld, much less the PSP.
To me hand-helds lend them self far more to pick and play style of games
Yes it was about graphics and animation and use of next gen physics and inter active environment, in which Kenan looked incredibly dated compared to Borune (which was hardly leading edge) , fair points I think you’ll find.
Unreal 3?. Many games do, but I’ll not base my views on animations and graphics by playing Mirror’s Edge to Kezan , or Wheelman to Enslaved. Given the totally different styles of Gameplay and assets need . So its just easier and I dare say fairer , to play both Bourne and Kezan and compare the way the battle engines handle the animation and the interaction to the their soundings . Borune that simply did it much better imo
See my comment above, Team Andromeda.