Japan's hopefully not so "great fall"

[Geoffrey]

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]India is a democracy and as a decent education system (many cry foul for India taking many UK service sector call centre Jobs) Like the UK there were parts that were very rich and very Poor in the Victorian age and a pretty poor education system , but the more people that work the more that get the wage and the less kids each family have - the more their living standards will eventually go up

In the end a lot of Troubles in India or Africa can only be sorted out by their people and their own Governments[/quote]

So stop having absolutely anything to do with them then. This is what is known as hypocrisy. You cannot meddle in their affairs, sell them tech, drill their lands etc etc, then say it’s up to them to solve their own problems in the same breath.

Those people are every bit as smart as us. To claim that they are simply behind us when the west HAS played a role in keeping them there insults their intelligence and potential.

There are many many reasons why people are Homeless , lack of housing is only one of them. And like I said if the UK Goverment spent more on its own people and worried more about what happens in the UK (rather than try and police the world) Maybe we’ll be a better place to live , and the Sooner we pull out of the EU the better too

Lack of jobs, lack of housing, lack of education and hugely inflated house prices that should have come down during the crash.

The best source of revenue is to help everyone become self-sufficient. That benefits EVERYONE.

This undermining of the fundamentals that build success will only make us dependent on the architects of control who want to downsize the world’s population etc etc etc.

Many of my mates lost their Jobs at SONY and Panasonic - But they all have the cheap LCD’s and Gadgets. What goes around, comes around . It will happen to China it’s self (when it’s people demand higher and higher wages)

No, they will keep their workers under control for as long as they can. The inefficiency of collectivism will be used to another’s advantage, always.

We in the US and UK still basically suffer from a Neo-Imperial class system where an underclass has to exist in order to force the best out of people.

It won’t last when there is no way to produce our way out. And even if we do, welcome to the 70s all over again.

The old are outnumbering the young and the west relied on immigration to compensate for that loss of taxes etc etc etc.

Etc etc etc.

It cannot last.

I am almost amused by this inevitable downfall.

[Team_Andromeda]

You cannot meddle in their affairs, sell them tech, drill their lands etc etc, then say it’s up to them to solve their own problems in the same breath.

Great Britain left India to it’s self decades ago. It may have escaped your notice , India it’s self that’s drilling and mining and is fast becoming a World Leader (along with Australia) in the mining and Steel Industry ECT .
India isn’t that poor any more and it one of the fastest growing in the World economies. try phoning your bank or ISP help line and no doubt you’ll be sent over to India call centre - lovely bit of Irony that

Those people are every bit as smart as us.

I never ever said that at all, Please don’t come it Duke

Lack of jobs, lack of housing, lack of education and hugely inflated house prices that should have come down during the crash

What about Drug , Alcohol abuse , Marriage breaks ups ?, There are many reason why people end up homeless . It’s not just down to a so called lack of hosing

No, they will keep their workers under control for as long as they can

You seen China Inflation rate ? Its growing all the time, more and more people are enjoying wealth . It a few Decades China will not be the cheap world shop any more.

The old are outnumbering the young and the west relied on immigration to compensate for that loss of taxes etc etc etc

The west ? Japan faces the same troubles, so does a lot of the world (bar the middles east) People living longer is a problem the world will have to face , but I would agree Immigration was used too much as quick fix and only added to problems of lack of Jobs and housing in the UK

[Geoffrey]

I’m just saying that you can’t say the world isn’t our business when it became exactly that: our business.

The low standards of living in India and China still are undeniable. Japan needed to grow but couldn’t. The US and UK are basically becoming two-levelled pyramids where the top is getting so fat that it will crush the bottom sooner or later.

The fundamentals really don’t lie. Wealth has been consolidated into the hands of a few and there is no production to compensate or even general wealth to keep things afloat until it turns around.

It’s a safe bet that lots of jobs and affordable housing would solve a lot of homelessness.

Also, the Soviet Union was successful too for a while. If the cheap labor ends, those places will find themselves with too many people when playing by these rules.

The love of money is indeed the route of all evil.

[Team_Andromeda]

The low standards of living in India and China still are undeniable

Yes they’re not great then again I doubt it was a Pleasure beach to Live inthe UK during the Victorian age ether. Also I should point out China is now more wealthy that us, as a much bigger economy and holds most of the Worlds Government Bonds . You really need to drop the notion that China is poor

The fundamentals really don’t lie

Yes a capitalist system is the way to go, ask China

It’s a safe bet that lots of jobs and affordable housing would solve a lot of homelessness

Not if you’re have issues with Drugs or Drinks or going though Marriage break up - Jobs are no good for those people they need Medical Help sadly

Also, the Soviet Union was successful too for a while

That’s why it needed countless Billions from the West during much of the 90’s ?, What next N. Korean a shining example for us to follow ?

[Geoffrey]

Yes they’re not great then again I doubt it was a Pleasure beach to Live inthe UK during the Victorian age ether. Also I should point out China is now more wealthy that us, as a much bigger economy and holds most of the Worlds Government Bonds . You really need to drop the notion that China is poor

The people are generally poor.

Yes a capitalist system is the way to go, ask China

State capitalism is not the way forward. It’s even more self-destructive than a true free market system because it rallies behind the whole and not the individual.

But the NWO architects and a lot of left wingers generally love the Chinese model of government because it is aimed at controlling people.

You are arguing that these places are both rich and backwards at the same time. Sure the elite are rich everywhere. What about everyone else?

Not if you’re have issues with Drugs or Drinks or going though Marriage break up - Jobs are no good for those people they need Medical Help sadly

You can’t really use this to argue that there should be no such thing as affordable housing. Affordable housing is inevitable. The market just manipulated everything to maintain the illusion, but that never lasts when no one has any actual money.

We are in a recession that could still prolong itself because there is hardly any new job creation.

That’s why it needed countless Billions from the West during much of the 90’s ?, What next N. Korean a shining example for us to follow ?

I am highlighting the fact that their model of government was simply unsustainable because it lacked ground up competitiveness. The wealth of empires generally comes from taking it through force.

Just because China and India are rich does not mean the system really works for everyone.

Isn’t that what we want? A system that helps everyone?

[Team_Andromeda]

The people are generally poor

Country isn’t and it’s a matter for China it’s people and it’s Government how they spend their money, not us . There’s millions of poor people in the UK, don’t you know

State capitalism is not the way forward

China is getting rich on the back of the capitalist system, to say or make out otherwise would just be to look over the Economic miracle that is China the last 20 years

You can’t really use this to argue

I will. There are many reasons why people are homeless and that’s true in the Bomb or Bust years

We are in a recession

No we are not .

I am highlighting the fact that their model of government was simply unsustainable

I’m not sure , Russia got very rich very quick on the Back of Oil and more so Gas , that’s the only difference. Russia has a place to do business with is still terrible and corrupt.

Isn’t that what we want? A system that helps everyone?

And Pigs fly. There will never be system that helps everyone - They’ll always be winners and losses sadly . What I like is for everyone to have a free press and the vote (open and free) sadly I doubt that will happen either

I admire your outlook hopes and morals ect Duke . But the real world is nasty and full of sh8t and horrible people

[Geoffrey]

Country isn’t and it’s a matter for China it’s people and it’s Government how they spend their money, not us . There’s millions of poor people in the UK, don’t you know

They sell goods to the world at cheap prices on the backs of slave labor. It has everything to do with us. If the world doesn’t want that to end because they’d rather have cheap goods, then people are damning themselves.

China is getting rich on the back of the capitalist system, to say or make out otherwise would just be to look over the Economic miracle that is China the last 20 years

China is, but the people are way behind still like I said.

They made their money because the world shipped industry to them exactly because it is so much cheaper. This has crippled US in the process.

It cannot last.

I will. There are many reasons why people are homeless and that’s true in the Bomb or Bust years

You are sweeping the problem under a rug. The market for affordable housing should be huge, but people would rather have 300k houses that should be worth 1/4th of that, and a solidified underclass is one of the consequences.

No doubt there are many many reasons, but jobs and the money that it brings solves a lot of them.

No we are not.

0.5% negative growth last year. 0.5% positive this year so far. Cuts cuts cuts, and barely any new growth still in the private sector.

But I am sure that everyone enjoyed watching some ex-Imperialists get married.

I’m not sure , Russia got very rich very quick on the Back of Oil and more so Gas , that’s the only difference. Russia has a place to do business with is still terrible and corrupt.

Yes, they are basically organized criminals who have taken charge, but they are producing their own way out now with their own resources.

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]And Pigs fly. There will never be system that helps everyone - They’ll always be winners and losses sadly . What I like is for everyone to have a free press and the vote (open and free) sadly I doubt that will happen either

I admire your outlook hopes and morals ect Duke . But the real world is nasty and full of sh8t and horrible people[/quote]

I look at Japan’s post-war recovery and economic boom and see no reason why a liberal conservative approach wouldn’t make everyone a part of the process. The problem is the west has to be worse in order to ensure being better, hence the blatant Neo-Imperialism.

If you give most people a way out, they will take it. Everyone can be a winner, but some will just win more than others. There are reasons why we aren’t still living in the dark ages.

[Geoffrey]

TA, let’s just agree to disagree. I am obviously an alien among the natives here.

It’s depressing when people only care if it’s in their best interests, but that is why I love this system of irreducible complexity. Remove one card from the house, and it all comes crashing down.

The system will either reset into balance or crash.

[Team_Andromeda]

They sell goods to the world at cheap prices on the backs of slave labor. It has everything to do with us.

When people are getting paid , when people choose to work how can it be slave Labour ? . At least the people are getting a wage and some money. The problems you hight could just have been said for the British during the Textile years in the UK.

China is, but the people are way behind

Rural China I take it ?. China has far more wealth than us and has one of the worlds fastest growing economies - Christ it hold most of the USA and EU bonds . Not our problem how China decides to spend it’s money

This has crippled US in the process.

No what’s helped the hurt the USA and a few other is borrowing on the Flexible friend and thinking the Good years would never end and massive amounts of overproduction in the Car industry . USA is still the worlds biggest market and on the back of the cheaper labour, Microsoft, Appel, Intel have got rich and employ millions and millions of people .

You are sweeping the problem under a rug.

No I’m saying if you have a drink problem you’l have a hard time holding down a Job, never mind a House.

but people would rather have 300k houses that should be worth 1/4th of that, and a solidified underclass is one of the consequences

Come to Wales and the valley’s 18k Can buy you a 4 bedroom House. There’s always going to be hotspot area’s . I think what not helping people is the amount they need an deposit for the house in the 1st place.

There are many reasons why people are homeless

0.5% negative growth last year. 0.5% positive this year so far.

You know the rules as good as I, it’s 2 quarters and we’re simply not in recession and that is a Fact.

Cuts cuts cuts, and barely any new growth still in the private sector.

Lets gets our Facts straight there’s been over 140,000 jobs created in the Private sector the last few months. Yes there’s Cuts, but that has to happen we can not as country go on borrowing over 10 Billion a month

But I am sure that everyone enjoyed watching some ex-Imperialists get married

And I’m sure the UK did well on the back of it in terms of tourism and the money brought from Tax on Beer ECT with people having street parties Ect.

Yes, they are basically organized criminals who have taken charge

Yep so no difference really .

I look at Japan’s post-war recovery and economic boom and see no reason why a liberal conservative approach wouldn’t make everyone a part of the process

Is this the same Japan that moved production outside to slash costs and use cheap Labour the world over and on industrial scale ?. The same Japan that has massive issues with debt, a older population that growing and growing, the same Japan that seen saw one of the worst and longest recession in the History (during the late 90’s and beyond) with negative equity and saw it’s own banking Collapse before the West knew what it was like ?

No country is a angel and we all have our problems

[Geoffrey]

When people are getting paid , when people choose to work how can it be slave Labour ? . At least the people are getting a wage and some money. The problems you hight could just have been said for the British during the Textile years in the UK.

Compared to what they could have, that life is still a joke.

Especially if you believe you only live once.

Do you want to waste the one life you have being paid nothing just to survive when something better is waiting to be found?

Rural China I take it ?. China has far more wealth than us and has one of the worlds fastest growing economies - Christ it hold most of the USA and EU bonds . Not our problem how China decides to spend it’s money

Not our problem?

The world shipped industry there which is now our problem. You don’t seem to want to accept this. The west cannot last as a consumer driven society.

No what’s helped the hurt the USA and a few other is borrowing on the Flexible friend and thinking the Good years would never end and massive amounts of overproduction in the Car industry . USA is still the worlds biggest market and on the back of the cheaper labour, Microsoft, Appel, Intel have got rich and employ millions and millions of people .

There are tons of people unemployed still, so unless you accept that there always has to be an underclass, this system is broken.

No I’m saying if you have a drink problem you’l have a hard time holding down a Job, never mind a House.

What jobs? Especially if you are an unskilled worker new to the job market? What jobs? All this does is kill people.

You know the rules as good as I, it’s 2 quarters and we’re simply not in recession and that is a Fact.

There’s not enough growth (it certainly hasn’t made up for the public sector losses yet) and this is still a consumer driven society. I know what the Tories are doing because I agree with a lot of it but all they can do is let the free market correct itself.

How does a consumer society correct itself?

And I’m sure the UK did well on the back of it in terms of tourism and the money brought from Tax on Beer ECT with people having street parties Ect.

The royals won more than we did, especially since they own so much land still. All earned with their own sweat and blood no doubt.

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]Is this the same Japan that moved production outside to slash costs and use cheap Labour the world over and on industrial scale ?. The same Japan that has massive issues with debt, a older population that growing and growing, the same Japan that seen saw one of the worst and longest recession in the History (during the late 90’s and beyond) with negative equity and saw it’s own banking Collapse before the West knew what it was like ?

No country is a angel and we all have our problems[/quote]

No, but going from nothing to a world leader speaks volumes. Plus, like you point out, the world has rules. You can’t blame people for playing by those rules to win. Capitalism thrives on growth, but here is a good example of running out of room and being forced to reinvent itself.

The rules can be upgraded to ensure everyone wins.

You really don’t see anything wrong with armies of slave laborors working for nothing in some countries, while millions of others live on food stamps or are homeless etc etc in the so-called civilized world, do you?

[Team_Andromeda]

Do you want to waste the one life you have being paid nothing just to survive when something better is waiting to be found

?. The Chinese people are getting wealthier day by day, it’s why there is no shortage of workers and why millions of people leave rural China to make a living in the cities.

Give that or getting paid nothing and having a utterly miserable life with no Job and no prospects I know what I rather.

The world shipped industry there which is now our problem

Not it’s not, For the last time it’s up to the People of China and it’s Government in how their spend their wealth, not us.

There are tons of people unemployed still,

There is always going to be people that either won’t take a job or can’t get a Job and that’s always been and will be the case.

What jobs? Especially if you are an unskilled worker new to the job market

under skilled eh ? , What happened to our wonderful educational system ? And there’s jobs going , just that it’s far harder to get any of them , but there’s jobs there.

There’s not enough growth

I’m simply saying we’re no in recession

I know what the Tories are doing because I agree with a lot of it but all they can do is let the free market correct itself.

Really… The VAT rise was a complete screw up, The Tories should be decreasing taxes not raising them, the 40% tax rate is a complete disgrace as is slashing our Armed Forces budget at a time of War

Call me Dave is worse than Blair this is a Tory Part that the country needs, it’s a pathetic joke of a Party lead at the top by people that’s never worked in the real world in their lives and will never know what its like to get Laid off and only live in the Westminster bubble

The royals won more than we did, especially since they own so much land still.

Nice way to try and twist it. It’s thanks to the royals that we get so many Americans to visit here , the Royals bring in more money than they spend and I bet the tax man have a good day during the wedding

No, but going from nothing to a world leader speaks volumes

Nothing ? America went from nothing to the biggest , isn’t that impressive? . And why is it ok for Japan to out sourced then Duke, You were once a SEGA fan right, remind again the countries that mass produced the DC, the Saturn, the Mega Drive, because it wasn’t only made in Japan for sure
Why is ok for Toyota , Panasonic, Nissan, Sony ECT,ECT to move production to the cheapest place they can find , rather than keep the Jobs in Japan ?

It’s ok as long as you’re a Japanese Company is it Duke ?

It seems you have your own rules.

You really don’t see anything wrong with armies of slave laborors working for nothing in some countries

Yes I do , but I’m willing to bet your household is full of the similar stuff to mine. Remember that the next you type on you keyboard which I’m willing to bet isn’t made in the UK or the USA.

[Geoffrey]

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]?. The Chinese people are getting wealthier day by day, it’s why there is no shortage of workers and why millions of people leave rural China to make a living in the cities.

Give that or getting paid nothing and having a utterly miserable life with no Job and no prospects I know what I rather.[/quote]

A willing slave is the most enslaved of them all.

Their lives can be way better right now. Marxism ripped the soul out of those people.

You have already conceded that this is the price that has to be paid to enjoy cheap goods.

You’re wrong. And even if you weren’t, it IS wrong.

Not it’s not, For the last time it’s up to the People of China and it’s Government in how their spend their wealth, not us.

Its government that controls the people.

The fastest way for them to westernize is if they fail, and they won’t fail if they get fat on selling cheap goods to us on the backs of slave labour. They will stick to the resource grabbing empire approach.

There is always going to be people that either won’t take a job or can’t get a Job and that’s always been and will be the case.

So the near 1/10 people unemployed are stupid or lazy?

under skilled eh ? , What happened to our wonderful educational system ? And there’s jobs going , just that it’s far harder to get any of them , but there’s jobs there.

The steps in the social ladder have been cut at the bottom or the leaps are too high. You can’t even join the army here now after all these cuts.

No amount of education will change a lack of job creation.

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]Really… The VAT rise was a complete screw up, The Tories should be decreasing taxes not raising them, the 40% tax rate is a complete disgrace as is slashing our Armed Forces budget at a time of War

Call me Dave is worse than Blair this is a Tory Part that the country needs, it’s a pathetic joke of a Party lead at the top by people that’s never worked in the real world in their lives and will never know what its like to get Laid off and only live in the Westminster bubble [/quote]

We agree. They are also saying that it could take half a decade to see any real growth again.

Nice way to try and twist it. It’s thanks to the royals that we get so many Americans to visit here , the Royals bring in more money than they spend and I bet the tax man have a good day during the wedding

This isn’t a monarchy anymore. And they still own too much land which they didn’t exactly earn fair and square. They are a relic of the past and symbolise what was wrong with the world. They still have too much power.

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]Nothing ? America went from nothing to the biggest , isn’t that impressive? . And why is it ok for Japan to out sourced then Duke, You were once a SEGA fan right, remind again the countries that mass produced the DC, the Saturn, the Mega Drive, because it wasn’t only made in Japan for sure
Why is ok for Toyota , Panasonic, Nissan, Sony ECT,ECT to move production to the cheapest place they can find , rather than keep the Jobs in Japan ?

It’s ok as long as you’re a Japanese Company is it Duke ?
[/quote]

They are capitalists doing what capitalists do: make money. So they will simply go to wherever it is cheapest to do that like a force of nature.

The biggest source of wealth is when you make everyone a part of the process when there are more jobs and more social mobility.

Remember that the next you type on you keyboard which I’m willing to bet isn’t made in the UK or the USA.

I don’t believe in empires. They are not good for most of us and never last for a reason, but it seems to me that if something is convenient in the short term few will say no. You may only be concerned with the here and now but what about in 20 years?

You still want the be addicted to oil to power cars just so some soulless CEO of a multi-billion dollar corporation can get a bonus while governments keep oppressing their own people to ensure a bigger cut of the profits whilst there is mass unemployment here?

Saving the world can be profitable too you know.

[Team_Andromeda]

[quote]A willing slave is the most enslaved of them all.

Their lives can be way better right now[/quote]

No, they’re workers not slaves, and compared to 20 years ago, their lives and wealth are far better .

You have already conceded that this is the price that has to be paid to enjoy cheap goods.

Yes it is . Japanese firms used Welsh workers for years to make and manufacture their goods, where the Welsh slaves, or what it just a simple case of Welsh workers simply asking for less pay ?.

Its government that controls the people

Exactly and it’s up to it in how the wealth is spread not us . The last thing we need if for the West to invade yet another country and try to impose our way of doing things .

So the near 1/10 people unemployed are stupid or lazy

You’re talking about the USA, because that isn’t the UK employment rate at all. I would say in the UK figure of 7% There are a mixture of people not skilled enough, can’t be assed or living in the wrong place, and quite a lot of genuine people.

You can’t even join the army here now after all these cuts

NO During recession years or the period just after is why the Army traditionally see’s a increase in recruitment. There’s jobs going in the Army

No amount of education will change a lack of job creation

So why is there over 700,000 jobs vacant in the UK economy ?, why does the UK need to bring in ‘skilled’ workers from oversea’s ?

We agree. They are also saying that it could take half a decade to see any real growth again

:).

Imo Rasing taxes, 40% Tax rate and pushing up VAT is a sure way not to grown an economy. I so wish Ken Clark was Chancellor , instead of the baboon we’ve got right now.

[quote]They still have too much power.
[/quote]

The Royals have next to no power (well the Queen does, but she never uses it ) And the Royals bring more money into the country, than what it costs up to pay for them. I don’t agree with the Royals, but they’re brilliant for UK tourism, and helping to bring in UK investment.

They are capitalists doing what capitalists do: make money. So they will simply go to wherever it is cheapest to do that like a force of nature.

So Japan is really not better, and Japan shows the way to get Wealth is to use and embrace the Capitalist system, along with incredibly hard workers and a great Education system which Japan can boast.

I don’t believe in empires.

No ones does, they’re dying . But make is you’re Keyboard, the PC, The LCD, the Monitor, The Phone and where were they made ? What about you’re cloths , shoes ECT, ECT. I’m willing to bet, quite a few of those products will be made on the back of cheap labour.

And btw Duke, I hope we’re still mates, its just a debate that’s all. I’m don’t won’t to do personal digs and be having the same arguments with my mates and loved ones .

[Geoffrey]

No, they’re workers not slaves, and compared to 20 years ago, their lives and wealth are far better.

Problems never get solved if you don’t admit there is a problem. Most of the world living in poor conditions is not the way forward, nor is being controlled by a centralized authority.

Compared to what they could have, it can be way better.

That’s undeniable. Why overlook that when you see it with your own eyes?

Yes it is . Japanese firms used Welsh workers for years to make and manufacture their goods, where the Welsh slaves, or what it just a simple case of Welsh workers simply asking for less pay ?.

So in order to have cheap goods, someone somewhere has to be a slave living in poverty? That’s not the future of this world if it wants to have a future.

Exactly and it’s up to it in how the wealth is spread not us . The last thing we need if for the West to invade yet another country and try to impose our way of doing things.

It’s up to them, while the world will keep exploiting the controlled markets?

The funny thing is, if those places did copy the west, we’d be finished. Because they outnumber us and have all the production.

But it’s somehow up to them while we benefit from the top oppressing the bottom. You really don’t see the hypocrisy, do you?

You’re talking about the USA, because that isn’t the UK employment rate at all. I would say in the UK figure of 7% There are a mixture of people not skilled enough, can’t be assed or living in the wrong place, and quite a lot of genuine people.

Prices are going up, bills are going up, and standards of living going down. We don’t produce anything. And what we do produce others will do as well.

A consumer based society won’t be competitive in the long run.

There’s jobs going in the Army

Cuts cuts cuts, or did I imagine that?

So why is there over 700,000 jobs vacant in the UK economy ?, why does the UK need to bring in ‘skilled’ workers from oversea’s ?

Because it is faster and cheaper than training locals, which further solidifies an underclass. Not many of those jobs train new people.

Imo Rasing taxes, 40% Tax rate and pushing up VAT is a sure way not to grown an economy. I so wish Ken Clark was Chancellor , instead of the baboon we’ve got right now.

I think the Keynesian approach would have worked best. The Conservative approach would have worked THE best if we let everything fail. Free markets are still at the heart of that ideology.

The Royals have next to no power (well the Queen does, but she never uses it ) And the Royals bring more money into the country, than what it costs up to pay for them. I don’t agree with the Royals, but they’re brilliant for UK tourism, and helping to bring in UK investment.

They are a symbol of the old world. Success should be based on merit, not inherited wealth. The queen still has the power to disband government and has secret service report to her. That’s still too much undemocratic power.

So Japan is really not better, and Japan shows the way to get Wealth is to use and embrace the Capitalist system, along with incredibly hard workers and a great Education system which Japan can boast.

They became a world leader after being nuked. Yeah I’d say that is a good example to follow. They could not grow that’s the problem but their success speaks for itself.

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]No ones does, they’re dying . But make is you’re Keyboard, the PC, The LCD, the Monitor, The Phone and where were they made ? What about you’re cloths , shoes ECT, ECT. I’m willing to bet, quite a few of those products will be made on the back of cheap labour.

And btw Duke, I hope we’re still mates, its just a debate that’s all. I’m don’t won’t to do personal digs and be having the same arguments with my mates and loved ones .[/quote]

No worries. I just don’t think this will lead the world into the future, nor will undermining the fundamentals (true growth comes from the ground up).

Sadly, there are always going to be people who want to control others.

[Team_Andromeda]

Problems never get solved if you don’t admit there is a problem

And ‘just’ talking about the problem won’t help either.

Compared to what they could have, it can be way better.

What about compared to what ‘they’ used to have it’s much better ?

someone somewhere has to be a slave living in poverty

You are not factoring the cost of living in these countries the cost of goods, the tax take ect . Now people doing the same Job in South East England will in most cases get paid more than what in South Wales are getting paid for doing the same Job - The cost of living and Tax rate (council tax ect) is different. So ?10 to us , might be like ?100 to people in poorer counties…

The funny thing is, if those places did copy the west, we’d be finished

How ? if the cost advantage is nill then there is no point to out soruce production and production would just move back and most of the worlds R7D is till done in the West, if production moves back we’ll have the advantage on R&D and Production .

Prices are going up, bills are going up, and standards of living going down. We don’t produce anything. And what we do produce others will do as well

Thank Labour the Tories and EU: Labour which left us in a mess, the Tories for thinking Higher Taxes is the Way to go and the EU for it’s mountings of er tape and making sure you and I will always pay more for goods and Food (thanks to CAP) and on energy bills to meet EU targets

And we don’t produce anything ?. Right by me there a Honda factor for Brakes, a Factory that makes all the honda civic panels, I’m sure there’s car Production plants in the North East (I gather it’s pretty good) and in the likes of Coventry) I’m sure we export lots of Beef and Lamp too , as well as being one the world leader in the pharmaceutical industry and a few miles form me is the Airbus Factory, and you do light to highlight the Arms we sell aboard (we make them too)

Cuts cuts cuts, or did I imagine that

There’s always cuts in the Army especially to experience staff, that is different to Army recruitment numbers (of which we’re always short) and always on the look out of new Blood .

That’s why the Army spend a fortune on Adverts and the Internet

Because it is faster and cheaper than training locals

Exactly- That you Labour and the EU , the sooner we’re out of the EA the better !. That said we do need to do more to educate our Children and get them ready for work and give them skills

The Conservative approach would have worked THE best if we let everything fail.

What we got now is not the Conservative Party That I knew of , but a joke of a left wing party with a pathetic leader and hopeless Exchequer . I believe in the Capitalist system and to me a lot of the banks should have been left to fail and the good Fit banks take their place

The queen still has the power to disband government and has secret service report to her.

She’ll never use it. and they’re good for our country in terms of bringing in visitors of which millions of peoples jobs depend.

They became a world leader after being nuked

Japan was also rebuilt at great expense to West . Maybe we should have lost the war, because Germany and Japan did rather well out of it, and had billions in Aid to rebuild and start new

Yeah I’d say that is a good example to follow

What outsourcing to the cheapest Labour Markets ? I gather the likes of Sony love Chinese Labour (my PS3 was made there) and are moving their TV plants to Eastern Europe to slash costs

No worries.

That’s good to hear .

Sadly, there are always going to be people who want to control others

Yes they’ll always be wars, they’ll always be winner and losers sadly

[Geoffrey]

And ‘just’ talking about the problem won’t help either.

Recognizing it for what it is helps, but propping up what should fail on its own won’t.

What about compared to what ‘they’ used to have it’s much better ?

It’s still slavery whether upgraded or not and whether they see it or not.

You are not factoring the cost of living in these countries the cost of goods, the tax take ect . Now people doing the same Job in South East England will in most cases get paid more than what in South Wales are getting paid for doing the same Job - The cost of living and Tax rate (council tax ect) is different. So ?10 to us , might be like ?100 to people in poorer counties…

People have a choice between business as usual which will lead nowhere, or making exploitation a thing of the past.

How ? if the cost advantage is nill then there is no point to out soruce production and production would just move back and most of the worlds R7D is till done in the West, if production moves back we’ll have the advantage on R&D and Production.

The rest of the world has more people. We’d be forced to be much more competitive, and if we stayed a consumer society, we’re finished.

Welcome the competition to do things better, cleaner, safer etc then we can all evolve together.

Thank Labour the Tories and EU: Labour which left us in a mess, the Tories for thinking Higher Taxes is the Way to go and the EU for it’s mountings of er tape and making sure you and I will always pay more for goods and Food (thanks to CAP) and on energy bills to meet EU targets

More home-grown growth could solve a lot of that. You can’t really blame Labour for the economic crash either.

And we don’t produce anything ?. Right by me there a Honda factor for Brakes, a Factory that makes all the honda civic panels, I’m sure there’s car Production plants in the North East (I gather it’s pretty good) and in the likes of Coventry) I’m sure we export lots of Beef and Lamp too , as well as being one the world leader in the pharmaceutical industry and a few miles form me is the Airbus Factory, and you do light to highlight the Arms we sell aboard (we make them too)

40% of the world’s production is now in Asia. We’re nothing. The states is in a better position to recover.

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]There’s always cuts in the Army especially to experience staff, that is different to Army recruitment numbers (of which we’re always short) and always on the look out of new Blood .

That’s why the Army spend a fortune on Adverts and the Internet[/quote]

They are downsizing from 100k to 80k. They don’t need to recruit untrained people.

Exactly- That you Labour and the EU , the sooner we’re out of the EA the better !. That said we do need to do more to educate our Children and get them ready for work and give them skills

I hope so.

What we got now is not the Conservative Party That I knew of , but a joke of a left wing party with a pathetic leader and hopeless Exchequer . I believe in the Capitalist system and to me a lot of the banks should have been left to fail and the good Fit banks take their place

The world didn’t want to endure the pain for some reason, even though it was incredibly hypocritical especially in the states. How they could bail out the rich when they don’t bail out the poor just sends alarm bells ringing.

But the banksters won.

She’ll never use it. and they’re good for our country in terms of bringing in visitors of which millions of peoples jobs depend.

They are still a relic of the past, and should stay there. We don’t need them.

Japan was also rebuilt at great expense to West . Maybe we should have lost the war, because Germany and Japan did rather well out of it, and had billions in Aid to rebuild and start new

They did what worked unlike a lot of places that have received aid. Nazism and Imperialism would not have been so kind to us.

What outsourcing to the cheapest Labour Markets ? I gather the likes of Sony love Chinese Labour (my PS3 was made there) and are moving their TV plants to Eastern Europe to slash costs

Those cheap labour markets need a change of government to give the people rights. As long as governments benefit from lack of rights, the process will be slowed down. Some people like to think that this is all normal to them, and thus, change is impossible. That’s doing a great disservice to our fellow humankind who have been kept in the dark.

But a profit motive will always go where the money is.

Yes they’ll always be wars, they’ll always be winner and losers sadly

We’ll see about that. The losers don’t have to lose their lives for a start.

[Team_Andromeda]

Recognizing it for what it is helps

It’s just Talk mate and Talk is cheap.

Recognizing it for what it is helps

People who ‘choose’ to work and get paid aren’t slaves.

People have a choice between business as usual which will lead nowhere, or making exploitation a thing of the past

Nothing to do with living costs , even in the UK there’s a great difference in the living costs and what people get paid in the North to those in the South East and people’s life expectancy

The rest of the world has more people. We’d be forced to be much more competitive, and if we stayed a consumer society, we’re finished

Makes no sense , Having lots of people is no good unless they have the infrastructure the energy supply’s and the skills to mass produce on an industrial scale. And like you keep on telling me there’s millions of people with out work inthe West, they’ll be more than happy to take the jobs back from the East.

You can’t really blame Labour for the economic crash either.

Yes you can .

Labour set up the FSA and took control away for the Bank Of England and the FSA were found to be utterly hopeless. Labour did nothing to stop RBS buying up banks spending beyond it’s means and lack of Competition in the Market , If that’s not enough Labour recommend and pushed through the Merger of Lloyds TSB HBOS, one of the worst deals in the history of any Government: taking a Good bank like Lloyd’s to the debit ridden and hopeless HBOS , and if that’s not enough Labour did nothing to stop spending tried to make it was an End to Boom And Bust and even inthe so called Go years of 6% growth was borrowing over 50 Billion a year and put nothing away for a rainy day (unlike the Germans, Aussi’s, Norway Ect)

That’s to that terrible miss management we’re all going to have work till we drop and pay ever more higher taxes.

40% of the world’s production is now in Asia. We’re nothing. The states is in a better position to recover.

40% ? and like I said if the goods cost the same as or more to make , Production will be moved back.

They are downsizing from 100k to 80k. They don’t need to recruit untrained people

You need to get your facts just that little bit better . In the Army there’s is high drop out rate, more so given the 3 War’s we’re currently fighting. So there is always a need for new recruitment (they call it new Blood) and very rarely does the Army ever meet it’s own recruitment targets to replace the 10,000 or so personal that have enough and leave the Army each year .

I hope so.

You and me both.

The world didn’t want to endure the pain for some reason

but that’s the Capitalist system, Let the unfit fail and the healthy take their Place .

We don’t need them.

The Uk tourism Industry does ,and so do a lot of charities

Those cheap labour markets need a change of government to give the people rights

Different point, You keep going on about Japan, yet seem to look over how Japan outsources a hell of lot of it’s production . You can not have it both ways .

The losers don’t have to lose their lives for a star

? Such a silly thing to say , Just by being rich doesn’t mean you’ll live too. Plenty of people with more money that countries die mate. Money can’t buy your health , or at the end of the day buy you happiness and true Love and real mates . some of the best things in Life, truly are free .

[Geoffrey]

It’s just Talk mate and Talk is cheap.

That is where you are wrong. Ideas can be defeated. Most people don’t want to be slaves if they have a choice, and most people will want to live in peace, so to just accept what is when it’s robbing people of their potential, is wrong all by itself.

People who ‘choose’ to work and get paid aren’t slaves.

Compared to what they could have, it’s slavery nonetheless. Every single person on this planet could enjoy the life that we do.

Nothing to do with living costs , even in the UK there’s a great difference in the living costs and what people get paid in the North to those in the South East and people’s life expectancy

And there are reasons for that including less growth etc because outsourcing and an inability to adapt. The cheapest way of doing things supersedes investment in long term self-sufficiency.

Makes no sense , Having lots of people is no good unless they have the infrastructure the energy supply’s and the skills to mass produce on an industrial scale. And like you keep on telling me there’s millions of people with out work inthe West, they’ll be more than happy to take the jobs back from the East.

If that happens. If they westernized, they not only have more production but their own markets to which to sell products. They won’t need the west.

That is just a matter of time at this rate. Plus more people means they could just take what they wanted through numbers as well.

The math doesn’t really lie. People who benefit so much from control rarely give it up without being overthrown though.

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]Yes you can .

Labour set up the FSA and took control away for the Bank Of England and the FSA were found to be utterly hopeless. Labour did nothing to stop RBS buying up banks spending beyond it’s means and lack of Competition in the Market , If that’s not enough Labour recommend and pushed through the Merger of Lloyds TSB HBOS, one of the worst deals in the history of any Government: taking a Good bank like Lloyd’s to the debit ridden and hopeless HBOS , and if that’s not enough Labour did nothing to stop spending tried to make it was an End to Boom And Bust and even inthe so called Go years of 6% growth was borrowing over 50 Billion a year and put nothing away for a rainy day (unlike the Germans, Aussi’s, Norway Ect)

That’s to that terrible miss management we’re all going to have work till we drop and pay ever more higher taxes.[/quote]

You still can’t blame the government for what the free market actually did.

40% ? and like I said if the goods cost the same as or more to make , Production will be moved back.

We’ll see.

You need to get your facts just that little bit better . In the Army there’s is high drop out rate, more so given the 3 War’s we’re currently fighting. So there is always a need for new recruitment (they call it new Blood) and very rarely does the Army ever meet it’s own recruitment targets to replace the 10,000 or so personal that have enough and leave the Army each year .

They’ve still downsized and there is still only a certain limit to what they need which doesn’t cover the amount of unemployed.

The jobs for new untrained people are scarce.

The Uk tourism Industry does ,and so do a lot of charities

No, we don’t need them. We need ourselves, not ex-Imperialists and ex-Nazis.

Different point, You keep going on about Japan, yet seem to look over how Japan outsources a hell of lot of it’s production . You can not have it both ways.

They do whatever it takes to make money within the confines of the rules set. That’s all. Hate how they do it all you want, but they still do it, unlike a lot of other countries.

Yes, the profit motive exploits people. And benefits from countries that control their workforce.

? Such a silly thing to say , Just by being rich doesn’t mean you’ll live too. Plenty of people with more money that countries die mate. Money can’t buy your health , or at the end of the day buy you happiness and true Love and real mates . some of the best things in Life, truly are free .

I’m just being realistic.

All those things are easier to have with money. You can’t deny it. And everyone can become a part of that process. Everyone. Even if someone has to be a loser in order for someone else to win, no one needs to be relegated to hopeless poverty. Safety nets have been proven to work better, although I guess the drive for excellence is dampened a bit. Needing money to breathe when there is no help will do strange things to people, if it doesn’t destroy every inch of them first.

[Solo_Wing]

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]I’ll ask you what would you rather eat, Meat that was raised and bread on a far, in the fields , or meat that came from a test Tube or that was cloned .

On the GM debate I don’t trust that it’s safe, that said I don’t like the Industrial Factory framing we have now (I think its to blame for the massive Cancer rates) but there is no alternative, other that to give up meat completely[/quote]

On the meat issue, in-vitro meat is not genetically modified. It’s simply animal flesh that is grown separately from a living, breathing animal. It consists of natural meat cells. Commercial sale of the product is still a few years away, nonetheless I don’t think we should rule out in-vitro meat as a viable alternative simply because the way it’s grown is not natural. Unnatural does not necessarily mean it’s unsafe. I think there are a lot of “yuck factors” that turn people off. But compared the immense amount of suffering caused in producing meat from conscious animals, any yuck factors related to cultured meat are simply not proportionate to the real world consequences of sticking with the status quo.

As with any of these new food products, they need to go through the similar scientific peer review processes that drugs and other modern medicines go through to ensure that they’re safe for the public to consume. Would you trust the scientists when it comes to medicine?

Oh I can , Its a simple think called Mad Cow or BSE. That what happens when Science and farmers think they know best, that it’s perfectly safe and try to play GOD .

You left out the first part of my sentence where I said: “If scientists can produce healthier foods that taste the same, and can be produced safely?”. I can’t have a proper discussion if my position isn’t represented charitably…

With the Mad Cow situation, I think that was more a case of what the farmers feeding the cattle: the remains of other cattle. Essentially, cannibalism. That is quite different from GM food or in vitro meat.

Why is the only answer to Tax people ?

But how else would you encourage the free market to shift away from coal? The free market won’t do it on it’s own, so long as it’s more profitable to stick with the status quo. So, a tax would encourage the adoption of renewable energy.

That seems to me , to be more about redistribution and social mobility , rather than a debate on Global Warming.

The talk wasn’t a debate about the science of global warming. The scientific community has moved on from the scepticism; we need to be looking at strategies to reduce the problem. As I indicated earlier, 98% of climate scientists believe that humans are contributing to global warming. If the sceptics are still doubtful about this number, they really need to gather their own statistics to show that a much lower number of scientists accept this conclusion. This is how science works: if you don’t agree with the data, go and gather some data yourself to prove them wrong.

The trouble there is Apple products aren’t cheap at all to buy, but they’re still made with cheap Labour , So the Consumer is stuck in a trap , he or she can’t help people buy spending more on Goods, rather than buying some cheap Goodmans load of crap. Also at least the people that make these goods are at least getting some sort of wage and living - better than nothing (and I’m not saying that to make me feel any better)

iPods were just one example… the point applies to anything produced via labour that is below what we would consider acceptable working conditions. I think I agree with you that boycotting the product is not going to do much to help people in poverty (it may even make things worse). Donations, on the other hand, may help.

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]On your Global Warming talk was this issue ever brought up . I think Farming accounts for 30% of the worlds CO2/Green House gases and nothing is done about it.
I think Factory/industrial farming is one of the worst things of the Modern age , but yet I still have my Turkey come Christmas - On this issue I have double standards and I’m a Hypocrite[/quote]

Animal emissions weren’t mentioned in talk, it was mainly focused on fossil fuels. I agree though, farming is a major contributor in all this. I think our food production methods need to be seriously rethought.

[Team_Andromeda]

That is where you are wrong

How ?

You can talk all you want about how you want a Job, if you don’t get up and look for one , make a CV and start applying for Jobs you’ll never get one, not matter how you may talk about it .

Talk is cheap and easy.

Every single person on this planet could enjoy the life that we do.

Not really and not everyone in the UK is living it up , and there’s quite a few in India living a better life than some in the UK for sure.

And there are reasons for that including less growth

What about when most people chose to live (so land is at a premium) and you’ll always get more investment in the cites than in a Rural aera (say where I live ) but to counter that living costs are lower (House prices ect)

If they westernized, they not only have more production but their own markets to which to sell products

They won’t need the biggest market in the World ?. The EU and USA Markets are Huge and nothing is going to change that .

You still can’t blame the government for what the free market actually did

Of course you can and should. Labour totally and utterly messed up and has another example of their economic incompetence. Brow sell off half the Countries Gold reserves and buy’s the Euro When the Euro rate was failing like stone and Gold going up and up .

They’ve still downsized and there is still only a certain limit to what they need which doesn’t cover the amount of unemployed

You’re still missing the point. The army needs to hits a certain level of army recruitment, even with Job losses than will never change ; given the fact that thousands of troops leave the Army each year anyway.

No, we don’t need them

I say again the UK tourism does .

They do whatever it takes to make money within the confines of the rules set

So as long as you’re Japanese it’s ok to use Slave labour (your words) , sack your domestic workforce and outsource production .

All those things are easier to have with money. You can’t deny it

Money helps more so with Health but it’s not the be and end all and no amount of money can make you have ‘true’ friends or ‘true’ love ; Those are things that come from the heart and person soul not their back pocket.

Would you trust the scientists when it comes to medicine?

That depends On the whole I would say yes but then one minute you’re told to have a aspirin a day , then not , we had a huge fuzz with the mmr jab. We’re told that smoking causes cancer , yet the Japanese seem to smoke like chimney and have nothing like the Cancer rates in UK .

And tbh I don’t trust genetically modified at all.

If scientists can produce healthier foods that taste the same, and can be produced safely?

No I don’t like the GM food , but if it were to be proven be 100% safe , then I guess I would eat it . Tbh I’ve already eaten it in the USA no doubt .

I think that was more a case of what the farmers feeding the cattle: the remains of other cattle

The point there is were were told that was safe, by the feed makers, the farmers and UK scientists (not all, but most)

But how else would you encourage the free market to shift away from coal

You can do it in 2 ways, either ban Coal outright, or make the greener alternative so cheap you be completely mad no to use it.

Raising taxes don’t work as the Fuel and Alcohol duty show ; There’s now more people driving and drinking in the UK than ever before.

iPods were just one example

But the trouble is many of the exclusive brands all use cheap labour

Animal emissions weren’t mentioned in talk, it was mainly focused on fossil fuels

Well they should be, given they account for %25 of green houses gases now, never mind in the Future when the word gets richer and the earth’s Population goes up . Did the Talk mention Shipping at all ?

That’s never talked about even those Shipping is the biggest source of Greenhouses gases when it comes to Transport .