Israel/Palestine

Mature Discussion
21

[quote=“Parn”]
This is where the kids come in. The current generation can’t maintain it. My proposal would take a long time and a lot of money, but I sincerely believe it would work.[/quote]

Believe it all you want, but I still don’t think it would. Now, hypothetically speaking, let’s assume for a moment that the majority of insurgents are wiped out through whatever means. Then your plan would work. But based on how deeply rooted the fundamentals of our opponents are teeming in the society, it seems that we will never truly rid ourselves of them for good. To get them into the minority would be progress enough, but then we’d still end up with a polarized middle east. You can’t win with these people. It’s insane. Utterly insane.

It’s brainwashing, but it’s still progress. If it’s brainwashing to introduce reason into the mind of a child, then I’m in. If that’s what it takes to further the species and rid us of theocratic Islamofascist dogma, then it’s worth it. Even so, what I’ve said still applies. Wishful thinking.

22

Yes I do. Sadly, as we often see, self-interest is the primary motivation for invasions, but sometimes it’s needed to stop genocide nonetheless. The Balkans is a good example of this. Most of Europe was content to literally do nothing as people were being ethnically cleansed left, right and centre.

When you see someone being knifed to death on the street, saying it isn’t your problem won’t solve anything. Avoidance doesn’t “work” for long.

I guess it’s a lesson people need to learn the hard way again. When you have the power to make a difference no one has any excuses to just do nothing, but unfortunately, this is the world we live in.

I think liberals are screwed, because they will be the first people to be raped and pillaged when the system comes crashing down, becoming the victims of their very own much vaunted laws of the jungle. There’s a massive difference between being an idealist and a realist. How do they think all of this is maintained?

The Russians threatened to point nukes at Europe again, but it didn’t seem to register in anyone’s minds. Maybe the French will protect them?

23

[quote=“Kadamose”]Well, I’m going to butt in and say that Hitler had the right idea - he was just an underachiever. If I had my way, I would eliminate 90% of the world’s entire population, regardless of race, sex, or faith. But it appears I’m not the only one who thinks this way - check out the Georgia Guidestones: http://www.radioliberty.com/stones.htm

Since we’re on the topic of faith now, the world would be heaven on earth if everyone were atheists. ‘God’ is a manmade myth, created solely for the purpose of controlling the masses through fear. If humanity would throw away the idea of God, all of this nonsense would go away.[/quote]

This didn’t work in atheist Russia, remember? Why have the Christian influenced countries thrived while the rest have suffered?

Why do you forget that science was born from people seeking to understand how God created all of this?

It’s not the faith in a god you should be worried about matey. It’s human nature you should be concerned with, because deep down, it’s a very ugly thing. People didn’t need the idea of a god to mass murder and cause untold suffering before, and they certainly don’t now. In that respect not much has changed.

Cleansing the “weak” will never be the answer. Why? We are all one people here. Ideas of right and wrong aren’t even the subjective concepts they are often depicted to be.

For argument’s sake however, what would your plan accomplish?

24

It didn’t work in atheist Russia because while the State did away with all religions, it went ahead and made itself an icon, essentially making it a type of theocracy. Before you bludgeon me with “what-the-fucks”, allow me to clarify. Yes, the official “religion” (A tad ironic that they called it that) was atheism, but the fact that the State made people worship it as if it were a religion essentially made it no different in essence than a theocracy. That’s why.
In my honest opinion, a true atheist state wouldn’t acknowledge religion.

What Christian influenced countries are you referring to? Britain? Certainly not America. America is a secular nation. It’s right in the first amendment, baby:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Now, you could argue that what the Framers had in mind was their own self-interest to practice deism, but the fact of the matter remains that this clause, despite whatever beliefs the Framers had (which I assure you were not predominantly Christian), essentially cements the US as a secular, non-religious nation. And you would be amazed how many times we have had to defend that freedom throughout time.

For any further disagreement I direct you to the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, also written by Jefferson, which clarifies his intentions far moreso than the First Amendment. It’s basically everything he wanted to say but couldn’t.

25

The Israelis are the new Nazis imo , and will no doubt start off WW III. The way they treat and persecute the Palestine people is a scandal imo, and this coming from a nation that should know better than anyone, whats its like not to have your homeland or to the persecuted against , and what the Israel did in Lebanon defied believe the one part of the Middle that had some since of democracy, and was open to Westerns . The way Israel breaks every UN rule and keeps occupied land and builds new settlements is shaming . We invade Iraq for breaking like one UN rule , Israel breaks God know how many and gets away Scott free , and Baboon chops (Bush ) needs to get a idea of the middle east .

Mind you thats no excuse for Arafat turning down the best deal the country was ever likley to get, or the Suicide bombing

26

Pfffffffffft. Ahahaha.

If you hadn’t noticed, Israel is surrounded by countries who refuse to acknowledge their right to exist. They are surrounded by enemies. It’s been this way since its inception, so it’s easy to play high and mighty when you sit comfortably behind your computer typing away on what someone else should be doing in a war-torn region of the world.

Israel doesn’t go out of their way to attack for the sake of killing Arabs. They are a reactionary state. They have no aspirations of conquering their neighbors. They just want to exist. When someone strikes against them, they strike back, usually ten-fold. And they have to, because a show of force is the only language bullies understand. It’s always hilarious to me that there are people like you who hold Israel to a double standard. When Palestinians attack Israel, people just shrug their shoulders and the UN sits on their collective, useless asses, but the moment Israel strikes back, the UN condemns what they’ve done and Palestinians are victims of an oppressive race. What the fuck is Israel supposed to do, talk? It sure isn’t like they haven’t tried over, and over, and over, and over, and over.

Don’t get me wrong, as the Palestinians deserve to live there just as much as the Israelis do, but it grosses me out when people talk about how the Palestinians are being persecuted while labeling the Israelis as a bunch of nazis. It’s bullshit. They’re both killing each other and refuse to compromise. That’s the reality of it.

By the way, what UN rule did we break when we went into Iraq?

27

[quote=“Parn”]
Don’t get me wrong, as the Palestinians deserve to live there just as much as the Israelis do[/quote]

No, they don’t. No one “deserves” anything when it comes to land these days. Almost every modern day nation these days is either a split from another nation or the result of conquest. Neither side deserves it, but they both want it, and they’re both going to fight for it.

These ones

And these ones

And these as well

28

The question was meant for Team Andromeda in reference to one of the statements he made. I’m aware of the on-going debate on the legitimacy of the invasion of Iraq, but I want to know if Team Andromeda knows what he’s talking about, and so I await his response.

29

I’ll think you find thats parties more than countries , unless you want to bring up Iran . But the way you talk you make it sound like some Israelis don?t think Palestine has the right to exist. Oh and has for playing the hight and mighty we in Britian lived under the threat of the bomb for years thanks to IRA , never mind we’re under attack right now as I type . The one only good thing to come out of 911 is that America woke up to what it like to like under threat of the bomb, thats what put pay to the IRA , not Tony Blair , but lacking of funding from the USA that why the IRA called it day and anyone that thinks otherwise is kiding them selfs and I speak has Irish cathloic (thanks to my Grandfather) that belived in the UK handing back . N . Ireland to the Irish

And as for the war in Irag I call invading a sovereign with out a UN mandate or being attacked by that state in question a crime Never mind trying to link Irag with Al-Qaeda when anyone with any sence know that Sunni , Shia Islam hate eah other so there was never any way Al Qaeda being in Irag under Saddam, Still that most basic middle east teaching is beyond Bush and his bunch of monkeys , no wonder the world is fucked

If it becasue Saddam was a evil Dictator , then we should be Iran , Zimbabwe , Nigeria , N Korea right now too . Hell N Korea and Iran have weapons of mass destruction (remember them Blair ) for good measure . We going in there anytime soon ??? no because they?ll put up a fight for one no doubt . If it because Iraq broke UN rules , then GOD help Israel is all I can say

Thanks to Bush and his monkeys the war on terror gone back to the dark ages and we’ll never ever win. He’s also made the wonderful people that are the Americans some of the most hated on the planet ( sad when you’ll never get a better welcome than from the Americans, such a wonderful race). My only hope is that SEGA will rise from the ashes , and before that (the bomb ) they’ll give us one last Pazner Dragoon game to enjoy and maybe more Jet Set Radio magic

30

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]
The one only good thing to come out of 911 is that America woke up to what it like to like under threat of the bomb[/quote]

Yeah, because the thirty or so years that we endured the Cold War totally didn’t count or anything.

31

[quote=“Neil”]

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]
The one only good thing to come out of 911 is that America woke up to what it like to like under threat of the bomb[/quote]

Yeah, because the thirty or so years that we endured the Cold War totally didn’t count or anything.[/quote]

Yeah I must have missed Russia or the West letting off Nukes , My mistake *Rolls Eye’s *

32

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]
Yeah I must have missed Russia or the West letting off Nukes , My mistake *Rolls Eye’s *[/quote]

Clearly you know nothing of what was going on during the Cold War. Just because it didn’t happen didn’t mean that the threat was imminent at all times during those thirty years. People lived in terror because they had no idea whether or not their society would be reduced to ash in the blink of an eye at any given moment. Ever heard of the Cuban Missile Crisis? The threat of “the bomb” was very real.

It’s an incredible pompous and ignorant thing to assume that America has been never had to deal with, as you put it in a very 1950’s style manner, “the bomb.” You seem to assume that terrorism is a new thing to us.

Do you realize that the WTC had been bombed before in 1993? It wasn’t destroyed until the 2001 attacks, but it sure as fuck did a lot of damage.

Or how about the fact that our terrorism isn’t just from abroad? We’ve got our fair share of whackos domestically as well. I shall reference here Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City Bomber, whose actions resulted in the death of 168 people. This was actually the largest incident of terrorism in the US until 9/11.

33

…

Is this guy for real.

Yeah, it’s pretty much impossible for me to take you seriously.

34

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2971/pdbushmp9.jpg

35

Okay I laughed. :smiley:

This was such a nice debate to read as well.

36

[quote=“Neil”]

Of coruse I’ve read on the Cuba crisis , but we all lived uder the threat of the bomb , thats the diff the whole planet would have ben affected none more that us in Europe , seeing as were were in both camps missile range and flight paths .

AS for America yeah its been the foucs of attacks, but a Prolonged and bloody campaign like us British had to put up with , or to a point Spanish with their movement , I think not . Not at any time when the UK was getting bombed to fuck and back, even our PM almost killed didn any USA president stop Gerry Adams or the rest of his murderess grop from travleing and fund raising in the USA, Oh that all changed come 911, wonder why .
I’m sorry I should have made it more clear this is not a attack onthe American people , but the people inthe whithouse ect . I think the American people are the greatest after us British and a credit to their country for what it’s worth , best few hoildays I’ve ever had , and if I had to live anywhere else it would be the USA , as I’m so anti EU (Political that is) its anytrue :slight_smile:

Hey one always needs to inject a bit of Humour into things , and us British do have some black humour

But I stand by what I said , unless you can prove the War on Irag was Legal , and Al-Qaeda was there before the baboon that is Bush Jr got in onthe act. The idiot didn’t have a plan for what happend after the overthrown and Ignored comments that disarming the police and Army was madness, a fact which sadly every brave men and women paying with their lives as we type .Bushes latest wonder plan in Iraq work out, Nope ! the places in a worst mess than ever.

37

I’m sorry T.A., but that post reads as absolute gibberish.

Never had a prolonged bloody campaign? What the fuck, batman?

Considering that my country of origin has a rather nasty habit of being in and out of war every twenty years, I don’t really get what you’re getting at.

Prolonged bloody campaign? Oh, you mean like the American Fucking Revolution? Come on, man.

World Wars I and II, while certainly nothing special since everyone had their losses there, still certainly count. Then not even five years later the Korean War. Then Vietnam. Then the Iran-Contra hostage crap. Then the First Persian Gulf War. Kuwait. Now the Iraq War, which isn’t even really a war so much as it is a conflict.

And again, can’t forget the Cold War as stated earlier.

Going back in time now. Ever heard of the Civil War? That was perhaps one of the most devastating events that our nation has ever faced, and we weren’t even a hundred years old yet. War of 1812? French and Indian War? Spanish-American War?

And you have the gall to suggest that we don’t know what a prolonged bloody struggle looks like? I know that we haven’t been around as long as you Europeans and haven’t seen a lot of the shit you guys have, but give me a break. America’s history is littered with war, violence, and oppression. I think, despite being a young nation, it’s safe to say that we’ve been around the block a few times.

I’m not attacking you or anything here, I’m just trying to get you to understand that Americans aren’t as naive to violence as you seem to think we are. I get that you’re not trying to attack the American people, but educate yourself before making an argument.

38

Since we’ve strayed a tad off-topic I’m going to go ahead and connect some of what I’ve just said to my isolationist position.

There’ve been a lot of arguments for western involvement in the situation, namely from G. Duke, and they’re very valid, but, as I said, when the situation is cyclical (anyone who thinks that this conflict, this War on Terror, will ultimately rid the world of terrorists is a child) and you pick sides, the bullies will not stop their onslaught. Does anyone get that 9/11 wasn’t the first time this has happened to the US? For the same reasons? Like I said, in '93 al Queda bombed the WTC for pretty much the same motivation, namely our support for Israel and military bases in Saudi Arabia. We didn’t learn the first time, so they had to up the ante to get their point across. Personally I think a stern e-mail would have sufficed just as well, but what can you do when there are seventy two virgins eagerly awaiting your manchowder on their face in another dimension?

My point is that if you support one side, you inevitably become the target of another. And because the enemy is one that simply cannot be stopped through conventional force (How can you fight a villain who does not fear death?), there’s little our intervention can do except hurt us.

39

I’m not on about war’s seeing as the British being a empire had more that its fair share not least with the Americans , or the celts that make up my race :slight_smile: I’m on about Terrorism there is a key diff

Also I’m on about governments, when knocking the USA ect Because do I think all people on Iran want to blow everyone up, no I do not , do I think all people in Britain support the Iraq war no I do not . You know I hate that lying 2 face cock that is Blair , just as much as I do Bush . My rants aren’t about the people, just the people in power

And we all know al Queda been bombing countries long before 911 , Africa knows this better than most . But answer me this who supported and funded what led to al Queda at the height of the cold war , and left Afghanistan become a haven for them ?? . The hawks inthe Whitehouse got a lot to answer for .

And now insead of making sure that the ‘just war’ in Afghanistan was sorted out , the hwaks then start another war in Irag , and now Afghanistan is coming back to bite us onthe bum , despite Heroic efforts for the British , Polish , Americans , Canadians troops and Irag is a total and utter death bath in anyone book . It a complete and utter mess

BTW, Please don’t get me started on WW II becasue I’ll go into a anit French rant and its not pretty :wink:

40

If you believe in “God”, then one of these camps of zealot’s has got to be right, therefore these wars must be gods will.

However, if you believe in Darwinian Evolution (in some fundamental respect), then we humans are simply elevating the principle of natural selection to a truly glorious rate of efficiency.

Personally I am clear in the perspective that most humans take some kind of dogma as a drug to avoid making peace with with the fact they are both an animal and… something else. Conflict is undeniably a natural facet of this world, “peace” is only a human construct. We will need to own and understand our relationship with the concept before we will ever have a chance to truly achieve it.

But I suppose I digress… the Israelites embody the single most powerful icon of both spirituality/enlightenment and hypocrisy in known human history. The immense role of the Judeo-Christian story in our psychic evolution cannot be dismissed. Whether it’s fate or not, that the Israelites should be perhaps the fulcrum for epochal change, better or worse, seems fitting.