By definition, God exists completely outside the universe and the rules of logic. Any attempt to prove or disprove His existence is silly and pointless. That’s the whole point of faith.
Ever since Christianity was founded, trying to understand as much about God as possible has been an important part of the culture.
Are you saying that if something is outside of our complete understanding then it must exist?
Infact, God not making logical sense is not even obvious. You will need to provide a logical argument for why he must not be logical (that should be a red flag right there Contradiction!) to prove that point.
Absolutely not. I’m saying that if something is outside of our complete understanding then there’s no way of knowing whether it exists or not. One can choose to believe in it. That’s what’s called faith. There’s a reason it’s called the Christian faith.
You did that quite nicely in your first post, so I didn’t think it was necessary. A simpler version:
God is omniscient.
Free will exists.
If God knows what is going to happen, then there is only one possible thing that can happen. That means I can only “choose” to do that thing. Free will doesn’t exist. Contradiction.
Thats the thing, we cannot make assumptions like this, because imo, God is so complex, that we will never fully understand it, so any attempt to disprove him in one sentence will be rather useless.
One thing I always find quaint about atheists is the self-blinkering nature of people like David Hume, the arch-empiricist. When he was rejecting miracles, he prodceeded to state that because miracles tend to be recorded in primitive and undeveloped countries, that reports of them are the product of tribalist superstition rather than rigorous scientific inquiry. Leaving aside the fact for a moment that this was a complete presumption, he then proceeded to completely destroy himself by quoting an instance of a miracle in a developed country (France) observed by many witnesses of the respectable, educated intelligentsia. His inspired and logical rejection of this?
Something that was effectively "Well, um, er, ah, uh, it can’t be true."
Aw, bless.
Oh, and then there was the golden one - that all accounts of miracles must immediately be discounted because the massive body of empirical observation gives unaminous consent to regular, predictable scientific laws. Never mind the fact that there’s no logical reason why something has to happen twice before it happened - when there’s been hundreds of thousands of reports of miracles, suddenly the body of empirical observations doesn’t give unaminous consent to those regular predictable laws.
Apostates, remember that if you live by the book, you die by the book.
Incidentally, “an open mind is like a fortress with its gate unbarred and unguarded” and “blessed is the mind too small for doubt”. Those are quotes from Warhammer 40,000, so Arcie immediately has to support the theists or get plugged by a Vindicare. With specially adapted Hellfire ammunition.
Not all atheists are assholes. Don’t judge the decent, (and I hesitate to use this expression due to the connotation it has recently acquired) silent majority by the outspoken, obnoxious minority.
God must be perfect in all respects lest it allow a creature to exceed his greatness and become BETTER than God. There cannot be more apparent reality than there is actual reality. Thus, God must be perfect and my argument applies.
The concpet of atheism is a bit stupid in itself .How can anyone know for sure there is or there isn’t a God?
I personally think God gave us free will and that’s how I answer people when they say “if God existed catastrophy #2 wouldn’t happen!”.Event tho I’m religious (with my doubts as everyone) I promised myself long ago I woulnd’t waste my life looking for “the truth”.Even if I was living a lie it would be a good lie and that’s enough for me.
You might think that sounds stupid but hey everyone’s different.
Raizen you really need to read “Thus Spoke Zarathustra” by Friedrich Nietzsche. Really a good read. I had to read it for school, and while I won’t spoil anything for you it provides a unique and profound outlook on the existence of God.
In the end I agree with Ghen on the concept that no one could really know fact or fiction about God. I know this has been said before but just to reiterate for another time, it is called faith after all.
[quote=“Bluefoot”]
You did that quite nicely in your first post, so I didn’t think it was necessary. A simpler version:
God is omniscient.
Free will exists.
If God knows what is going to happen, then there is only one possible thing that can happen. That means I can only “choose” to do that thing. Free will doesn’t exist. Contradiction.
Seems pretty obvious to me.[/quote]
What you really need to do is show WHY God must be able to contradict himself to exist.
Heck, if God must be able to contradict himself then he must be able to make a being more powerful than him, thus making him NOT the most powerful being.
Sorry, but could you please restate that? I honestly have no idea what you’re trying to say. Thanks.
EDIT
I just realized that the above statement could be misconstrued rather badly. I just wanted to clarify that I was specifically referring to David Hume, and definitely NOT any member of this forum. Sorry if I accidentally offended anyone.
I don’t believe in a god. I believe that it is up to people to make the world what it could be - not some supernatural power.
If people want the world to be so great they need to stop praying and start acting. I’m not going to devote my life to something which may or may not be true.
Either way, ‘God’ isn’t doing the most fantastic of jobs with the world at the moment…
