Finalizing my petition this week end


#1

Hello Panzer Dragoon Fans,

I have been following the great panzerdragoonlegacy website for quite a few years now… As most of you, I am a huge fan of the SAGA episode.
In fact, it has been my favorite game for years, even if I stopped playing as I grew older.

Until recently. And now, my two favorite games are PDS and Zelda:BOTW, I would not try to define a top1 among those two, it would not be fair and would not make sense.

Note: PDS is hard to find in France & Europe generally, I had to use an emulator on PC to re-play it as I did not own a SATURN copy of it (I borrowed the game from a friend back in 1998).

Anyway, Zelda:BOTW is probably the only game which made me feel something similar to what I experienced in PDS almost 20 years earlier. Even if the two games are not the same genre, that doesn’t matter.
And that made me think of what made such an impression on me. An impression that lasted for 20 years. I am an adult now.
In short, I think the success of those two games is mainly due to the immersive power they hold. And that is developed further in my petition.

So thinking about it gave me ideas and I finally decided to put this in words and write a petition (currently on draft, on change.org). I purchased the panzerdragoonworld.com domain which I will redirect to my petition once it is online.

By the way, the petition is about another RPG or action adventure game, not a shoot only game as I think this genre is too ‘superficial’ and PD world needs to be explored much deeper.

The idea with my message here is maybe to share some of my ideas, maybe improve the petition itself. But mainly to share the word, try to make it as visible as possible, contact webmasters on videogames website so that the news can be shared as largely as possible, and that on a WORLDWIDE scale , in a way that may have never been done before. I know that might sound ambitious or even pretentious but I think PD world deserves this. To achieve this, I will need contacts: in JAPAN, in US, everywhere…

When publishing the petition, I will publish a tweet which I’d like to be shared as much as possible to make “some noise” and get it readed by Yukio Futatsugi but not only.

EDIT: to make one thing clear, the petition is not about requesting a PD game for the old PD fans, it would have many chances to fail. It is about making a new ambitious and EPIC game with modern technics, based on the PD rich world. it is to make a successful game for new gamers, and also former supporters of PD and PDS.

This is quite long already, I wanted to introduce myself quickly !
:slight_smile:

EDIT2: I am just catching back on the fantastic contend/discussions on this board, and this message by solowing, alhough it is 2 years old now is one of the ideas I want to develop in my petition.
But my example will be the success of Zelda:BOTW


#2

Welcome. I’m glad you like the site.

Regarding a new petition, if you’ve been reading the site I assume you’re aware of Panzer Dragoon Revival? Although it was a different goal to what you were proposing, you can probably except similar signature numbers.


#3

Your write-up reminds me a lot of my motivation to create Panzer Dragoon Revival, and later Segalization. Both started out as a petition, with Segalization turning into a more general SEGA/Atlus news website. I’ve learned a lot from these projects, and I can safely say this: petitions don’t work. The closest thing to a successful SEGA petition in recent times was the SEGA PC petition. And even that one probably didn’t have much of an impact. In fact, Valkyria Chronicles was already in development for PC back then, and the recent Bayonetta/Vanquish ports would likely have happened anyway. Even so, it’s the only petition that really gained traction, getting numbers quickly. You need to pass that 10.000 mark in a matter of days, if you start slow it’s unlikely you recover. And if you really want to get noticed, you need hundreds of thousands of signatures. That’s where you can actually turn heads at the higher-ups of the company. For an HD remake, anyway. For a new game? You’d need even more. An important thing about a petition is focus and to be specific. Even the PC petition seemed to lack that, focusing on too many games.

Here’s something you should definitely read: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/ng78i3. It’s Katsuhiro Harada himself talking about what’s needed to create a Xenosaga HD remake. And then after the petition only got around 10k votes, this:

Now this is Harada himself. I don’t think Futatsugi would be doing something similar anytime soon. I don’t think a new Panzer Dragoon is commercially viable. We’re at a point where PSO2 still hasn’t been released in the West, and SEGA won’t even port Valkyria Chronicles 3 to the PC platform. Sega-Sammy is still not in a good position, the only thing on their mind over the past years has been to regain a sense of stability, to become profitable. They continue to struggle as they don’t have a lot of franchises they can count on to provide that stability. Only the RTS games come to mind, and recently Persona 5. And even the latter is still nowhere near Final Fantasy in terms of appeal, even as much as that franchise’s success has waned.

A new game? I guess NieR: Automata showed that it’s not impossible to sell a sequel to a cult-classic that sold poorly. It was a risk, and you could see the game still lacked a big budget, but PlatinumGames can work miracles even under those conditions. But note that this is an action game, and it’s creator Yoko Taro was a large factor in the game getting media attention. That, and the “controversy” surrounding the character’s outfit, driven by a fake image that was rather cleverly used as free marketing by Yoko Taro. It’s all about creating the perfect storm. Like how Valkyria Chronicles’ sales were boosted by the fact that FF XIII’s PC conversion was poorly done. VC became an example of PC conversions done right, and it helped that the much-respected Durante (known for fixing poor PC ports with unofficial patches) was a big fan of the game.

But that’s so difficult to get right, and it needs help from within the company. From my perspective, the only thing I could see work in terms of PD games is a Panzer Dragoon Orta remake. That’s by far the safest bet. Because the game would still look good in HD even with its current assets, it ran in 60fps, it had a lot of content and as a rail-shooter it’s still mechanically one of the best, if not the best, ever made. It also has the benefit of being without competition, especially on PC. Gaming media would report on that. At $20, you could sell that. If the fans could focus their efforts on that game, I think there’s a chance to push for that game.

As for PD Revival, I’m stuck. In terms of signatures, it’s not nearly enough. Trying to highlight the results now would be detrimental. Again, you need to create the right circumstances. I’ve considered retooling it to pitch a PD Orta remake specifically as the first step, as I think that’s commercially viable.


#4

If anything I’d like to see a PDS remake. You could really see the lack of resident space in Zoah. Imagine being able to fully explore Zoah in it’s entirety with a vast culture going on in the city and streets! Or Imagine the different levels we could explore in the Seeker’s Stronghold, amidst the giant flowing waterfall!

PDS had to work within the limits of the Saturn hardware so there is so much room for improvement. Although, I really don’t care to see that remade anyway. I’m sure it wouldn’t have the same charm.

If anything, make a new RPG with Orta. Go big or go home. Remember that scene at the end of Orta with her walking in the field with the pup? I want to explore with Orta. I want to go to Mobo’s village on top of the giant Lathum. I want to go to and explore an imperial city within the Empire ( possibly in disguise)! So many possibilities. I think another shooter just wouldn’t cut it for me.

I mean look what happened with Crimson Dragon…But, it’s unlikely, they wouldn’t take that chance with another rpg. Not a big enough budget, not a big enough audience. The game would be drained of all it’s creative direction in order to appeal to the mainstream…


#5

But, now that I think about it. Would any of you like to see an open world Panzer Dragoon action/rpg game? I mean the amount of space we cover while flying atop the dragon seems like a perfect fit. Flying in real time to our destinations…Maybe it could work. maybe not.

Or do you like the more confined structure of PDS? Doesn’t open world seem like a natural evolution for a Panzer rpg? Exploring massive cities, camps, caravans, imperial bases, imperial cities, vast ancient ruins, far reaching forests full of ancient technology. I don’t see how it wouldn’t turn into an open world with today’s standards…but set within a world I actually find mysterious and intriguing!


#6

I shouldn’t have said “remake”, as I indeed meant an HD port.

I’m typically not a fan of open world games, but this is definitely something that would work well. If anything, if they did make a new Panzer Dragoon RPG, this would practically be a requirement.


#7

I realized what you meant. I still don’t think it would sell well enough though and would most likely be a wasted effort…Not for us of course! At this point in time, the series would have to be rebooted. Too many generations of systems have come and gone and this series is starting to fade into the background.

A continuation of Orta’s story as an rpg would most likely leave newcomers confused. There would need to be some kind of recap mechanism in place. They waited too long, and anyway, it’s probably best just to reboot it with the same creative energy we saw with PDS! Just tell a new, but similar story in the same world we’ve all come to love.

It’s frustrating when every time I tell people about the Panzer Dragoon series they don’t know what the hell I’m talking about. I literally have to give them a history lesson…\

Me:

"Well there was this old Sega system called the “Saturn”. It didn’t do too well…The Panzer series started off as Rail Shooters…

Guy:

“What’s a Rail Shooter?”

Me: ( long explanation…)

“Then we got an rpg with only 10,000 copies released. Oh, it goes for upwards to $600 on Ebay now!”

Guy:

“Well, I guess I’ll never get to play that then lol!”

Me:

“Ever heard of Panzer Dragoon Orta on the original Xbox?”

Guy:

“No…”


#8

Zoah was small though, you can see the town’s size from above in the FMV before it is destroyed, so making it larger would be changing history. Better to make a new Panzer Dragoon game with a new larger town if you’re going to change the fundamentals. An open world game with a map the size of Panzer Dragoon Saga’s could be awesome.

I agree that a direct continuation of Panzer Dragoon Orta’s story wouldn’t make sense at this point. But you could have soft reboot without completely wiping the existing continuity. Set the story hundreds or thousands of years later; the events of the previous games could be hinted at, but would be known of by the new characters as history or legends.


#9

I guess you’re right about Zoah’s expansion. But I guess what really bugged me is the amount of buildings you “couldn’t” go in. When I first played PDS while in the Holy District, I remember just walking up to the locked doors; trying to get in. You couldn’t go in of course, but I really wanted to see more interiors! This was my only problem with PDS!

Also, concerning the soft reboot. I always wanted to play as an imperial officer, who wakes up to the horrors of the Empire and finds the dragon. Maybe Orta could hand off Lagi to this imperial rider. Then, it could still be a fresh start but taking place just after Orta…


#10

I have always considered treatment of the ‘towns’ in PDS about perfect. It largely avoids the uncanniness of barging through every door and looting (stealing) stuff which is otherwise such a comical trope of the genre. The interiors you are able to enter all have some narrative justification, none feel gratuitous. It is simply unrealistic for some random visitor to go everywhere, see everything and meet everyone like that. Azel sets those boundaries just right to force a better sense of the real, without also feeling arbitrarily restrictive or defined. imo

Azel is also a pseudo open world game already, so I think that existing balance could be updated, with a more seamless traversal of the game world while still forcing and focusing the narrative course. But in a less contrived manner than other typical attempts, rather than try to be overly clever just be consistent about it, so the player simply accepts the rules of the story.


#11

I wasn’t thinking about it like that. Huh…The game is pretty amazing for 1998 isn’t it?!


#12

Thank you for your feedback.

Yes, I remembered there was a petition but couldn’t find the official one so thank you ! I think I signed it a few years ago… My interest in making a contribution came from two things: seeing how they somehow rebooted Zelda and the music of the Terra magica album I discovered recently. I keep playing it so much lately, the PDW is litterally there, the music has a physical/colorful texture.

I very much respect what you are saying Draikin and I am sure you have worked hard on many things and attempts to make things move.

I want to bet on a reboot. And this is what my ‘petition’ will be aimed at.

If there was no PDS, I wouldn’t be here talking to you. I mean PD and PDZwei were good rail shooters but they didnt have the depth I enjoyed in PDS. There is PDO which is considered best rail shooter ever, I havent played it yet, I am about to fix this by buying a XBOX 1st generation.
Still I think the Panzer Dragoon World deserves a more opened game like an open world action/RPG whatever surprise us Yukio re invented game.

I am not a fanatic/extremist of the PDS mechanisms. For me, the key is to keep the background, the art direction and re think something that conveys the same epic feeling in today’s gaming industry.

And I want to develop some suggestions and ideas in this petition.
I also want to have it signed but the younger generation, literally the widest audience possible, I know it won’t be easy. And I know some of the original fans might even dislike what I will propose… but that’s how it is and my own vision.

In the first days, Zelda BOTW sold less in Japan than in the West because it broke the conventions.

Well, my petition is far from being finished, I will surely share some ideas with you soon here before I make it available online.

I am also hoping it gets read by the first one potentially involved in this: Yukio and makes him think twice veen if the petition is not signed by +10k ppl. We know that those numbers are overrated.
I mean, I am a photographer, someday you get 100 likes on Instagram, the next day, your post is reblogged +20 000 times. Are you suddenly a better artist ? Of course not, it is a matter of believing in what you do and getting is seen. So I hope this text will make the “right people” think for a while about the mine of gold they are sleeping on.

We all know PDS was finalized with bad timing and was not given a proper communication when it was released. Two major factors…

PS: I am sure PDO would be a great seller on the Nintendo SWITCH. Imagine you can have the game with you on the plane, train…

PS2: PDO2 ? did I miss something ??


#13

If you meant the mention of “PSO2” earlier in the topic, @Draikin was talking about Phantasy Star Online 2.


#14

ah ah ah my bad… you see how excited I can get, I don’t even read, my subconscious probably…


#15

I know I said that already but I made some progress on my “draft”. This extra time also allows me make some notes which I now need to put in order.

Its so hot in France lately that I never find the strengh to finish it in the evening… should be available for this week end.
I am planning to share it with you first before going live so that you can help in case there is something incorrect grammatically, if you have some suggestions…

I also made some search and the outcome proved what I was thinking.
Using google trends, did you know when people search for “panzer dragoon”, they are mostly interested by the “saga” episode most of the time ? even before "orta"
I wonder if SEGA is aware of all PD requests on google. It probably speaks even more than any petition, will have to include this idea when contacting SEGA


#16

Man man where to start…I can’t even begin to stress out how I cringe every time I hear people’s opinion on what is or is not commercially viable. Having worked both in TV and game development and just by my own observation and view on things I can tell you that what makes something successful or not is NEVER random.

Now, that is not to say that all developers know on the on set if something is going to sell, but if you are an astute observer, ask the right questions and observe the patterns…no commercially successful game out there will totally surprise you.

There’s a lot of negative self-fulfilling prophecies of what does and does not work in games (as there are in TV and film) and to cut to the chase…Panzer Dragoon is VERY commercially viable. Totallly. It’s all about how it’s done, and the VISION behind it. Whether there is one behind it in the first place…most games do NOT have one…or have a very small scope vision which yields small scope results (they get by and it kinda sells)…or they have one that just sucks…i.e. there’s no quality behind the execution. They usually don’t know who they are aiming the game for…or have very clueless people doing the work.

As simple a concept as it is, most people still don’t understand that a game is well received because it taps into something that people like. So long as a PD sequel does that, there WILL be a market for it. PDS is loved not by chance but because it accomplished this. It had a vision, it had quality. Had it had better distribution it would have been way more successful. It’s vision from the on set might not have set it up to be open to the idea of a sequel…which IS a factor when you consider what series can or cannot be succesfull…so there’s that to consider…

But if you design a PD, that takes into consideration people’s expectations (or lack thereof) and intends to reach a wider audience, it will. In practice what does this mean?

a) most people don’t know PD, so it has to be presented in a way that doesn’t require previous knowledge
b) the story/context for the game HAS to have wider appeal. PDS was great…but due to the nature of the story it told…it went niche from the onset. It’s all about highlighting and banking on the elements of PD that HAVE wide appeal…and have those as the base premise…you can look at any IP from different angles to make it look very differently i.e. show the world in a way that appeals to many or to only a few
c) the gameplay also has to have wider appeal
d) the tone has to have wider appeal

OR

it can still be successful but it has to know what niche it is going after and adjust its vision accordingly

The groundwork is done. The world is fantastic and provides a nearly endless number of creative choices for developers. All it takes is a developer with intelligence and the desire to make it better and reach more people…If you just want a new PD sequel as a fan…that would be something else. If you want to see PD as a respectable IP again…with a margin for progression…then you need to address these issues.

I might be sounding like I’m oversimplifying, and it’s true that execution is the hardest part with any idea…but you’d be surprised how many people working in creative industries have no clue what constitutes a good idea vs a bad one.

EDIT: That post by Solo sums it up. And failing to understand that also sums up with so many developers fail to keep good IPs relevant.


#17

Not sure who you are replying to, I agree with what you said and very much like the ideas you developed. It confirms a lot of what I think too which is great coming from a person with your background and experience in this field.

I also never said this or that would not be commercially viable ?

I humbly made some suggestions about what I would like to see. It is true I said that a rail-shooter, in my opinion, would be - by definition - limiting and restrictive. If not, this no more a rail shooter, unless you break all conversions of “rail shooting”. But I wouldn’t see this sort of game be a AAA game in 2017.

Again, I agree with you any new ambitious PD game would need to be made for the widest audience possible. The original fans would not be large enough to support an AAA game.
A port maybe.


#18

My experience in game development is very very limited, and not at all on the same level as any AAA game. But the point still stands as it has helped me demystify some long-held assumptions I gathered from the outside along the years. Like with many other areas of human endeavors…people take limitations too much at face value to compensate for a lack of imagination and having their opinions fed to them by whatever is on the market already creating this loop of lack of innovation that rarely gets broken. People making games at a high level are no smarter than you and me and I think fans SHOULD be more vocal and explicit in regards to what they want.

These ideas that to you and me might seem obvious from an outside perspective…often are NOT for game developers working in their respective companies. Companies are often very short-sighted in their view of what games can and could be … and it’s up to the people who actually end up playing the games at the end of the day to demand better ideas and better quality…otherwise we will continue having stupid things like quality games like PD not reaching more people…and shitty IPs that people only seem to care about because it’s what is put on their plate for them by publishers… getting the limelight over the years.