Crimson Dragon: my thoughts so far (no spoilers)

[Solo_Wing]

I still haven’t finished the game, no thanks to Microsoft making it impossible to save your progress in offline mode. If you don’t have an Internet connection available, even after downloading the game you will not be able to save your progress if you’re not connected to Xbox Live. So much for not requiring “always online”. I will have to set aside some time to finish the game in one go (or leave the Xbox One on over several days, although I think it may auto turn off after a while).

That rather major issue aside, the game itself is a mixed bag.

Controls: It feels like a Kinect game, but with controller support added afterwards. It’s evident that the developers tried to improve the controls, and to some extent they have, but controlling the dragon doesn’t feel as smooth as in the Panzer games. One issue is not being able to change the camera enough to see where enemies are coming from, so avoiding them often feels like luck.

Difficulty: Due to the control issues it feels difficult in an unfair way. Yet apart from the timed boss battles, it is always possible to buy your way out of trouble with a Revival Gem. Everything is built around the virtual economy of “credits”, which you have to spend even to start a mission. This means that if you’re low on credits, you have grind earlier missions to earn enough credits to play later ones. I really dislike this system.

Now for some good parts:

Environments: Absolutely stunning, especially areas such as Coral Lake. It’s a different, brighter world than Panzer, but beautiful in its own way. I hope we get to see more of it in an RPG sequel. So far I have seen five different environments, with three or four missions in each.

Free Flight Bosses: I have only encountered one of these so far, but the fight was rather epic. It required me to fly around a huge dragon, looking for weak spots (Saga and Orta fans should be right at home), accelerating and decelerating in order to avoid attacks. The sense of scale is a whole other level.

I’m not going to comment on the story until I have finished the game.

[Draikin]

Thanks for the early review, Solo. The always online thing is definitely an unwelcome surprise. Other than that, no real surprises here I guess. I’m surprised you liked the free flight boss mode, as I heard a lot of complaints about the controls there, with people saying they might as well have been off-rails. How does it compare to the way Panzer Dragoon Orta implemented their boss fights (which combined Panzer Dragoon Saga’s battle system with the traditional on-rails system).

[000]

When I get the game and my Xbox One, I sure hope I won’t have any internet problems or problems connecting to Xbox Live. I wouldn’t be too happy if I couldn’t save the game because of that.

I don’t think the grinding will bother me. I don’t have a problem with doing the same things over and over again in games.

From what you said, it sounds like the game is just okay. Not good or bad, but just okay.

[Solo_Wing]

I’m surprised you liked the free flight boss mode, as I heard a lot of complaints about the controls there, with people saying they might as well have been off-rails.

The controls are still a big issue. I wasn’t so much impressed by the controls as by the scale of the battle. Imagine fighting Atolm but several times larger so that you have to fly all the way around him, including over and under, to find the weak spot. It reminds me a bit of Shadow of the Colossus in that respect.

How does it compare to the way Panzer Dragoon Orta implemented their boss fights (which combined Panzer Dragoon Saga’s battle system with the traditional on-rails system).

Orta’s battle system is preferable. Not just because of the controls, but because more strategy is involved. However, I have yet to encounter later free flight battles in Crimson Dragon.

From what you said, it sounds like the game is just okay. Not good or bad, but just okay.

Yeah, basically. I plan to write a full review once I’ve finished the game.

[legaiaflame]

I can’t believe you can’t save if you’re not online! What were they thinking?!

[Solo_Wing]

It’s probably a leftover from the always online DRM that Microsoft took out at the last minute. I wonder which other games have the same issue. Has anyone tried saving a game that comes on a disc when disconnected from Live?

[oXydo_CHRONOS]

Oh my, I haven’t post here since well… o_O
I feel old all of the sudden. XD

Anyway I came here to speak of that Red Dragon with less armor
I think reviewers have clearly missed things and/or completly wrong on others.
That doubles up as a basics guide too. o

First, forget microtransactions.
Their only purpose is clearly to pay if you need a lot of revival gems. You should not use that many that buying packs of items+revival gems with the in game money will not be enough.
I have 30 right now and have never use real money in the game

Wingmen are not useless !
Choose a wingman with the apropriate element for the mission, a good level, take him forward and back as needed and it will be a massive help.
Choose poorly and let him in the back and THAT will make him useless.

There are several dragon in the game, use them.
That red fellow will not be a good choice on many mission, the Silvertail is a lot cooler anyway
You should have a dragon of each element ready and evolve them when you can.
And even then, choose your secondary attack with care and use those ampoules.

That means you will have to do and redo missions many times.
The game has clearly been design that way and it shows already just looking at how the difficulty increases. Uber Brutal describe it well
If you are getting destroyed, replaying misisions to level up your dragon, make better choice on dragon/attacks/wingmen using the knowledge of the level you gained is the correct solution, not bruteforcing your way trough with gems.
You will gain a lot of money, objects or rare seeds that way too.

I can understand it will not please every one but that’s the way to go.

I suppose being able to save might help too.

That won’t solve the problem of the wonky controls in free flight or the shitty menu to recruit wingmen but for the rest, it’s a good start.

If you want to borrow my dragons, gamertag is the same as my name here

[oXydo_CHRONOS]

I have some comment for Solowing’s review

There are 4 missions that need some money, only the bosses.
The most expensive, the last boss, is 3000 credits, the very first mission can give you more than 10000.

The red dragon is not really an agile dragon.
More agile dragons will be less floaty and less agile dragon, well, more floaty

The game will ask you if you want to use a revival gem when you HP hit zero not in the end of a mission in particular o_O (didn’t really see what you mean there XD)
But, again, you should not use that much and what you gain through normal pack should be more than sufficient.

The type of most of the ennemies you’ll see during a mission is clearly shown in the mission screen. That give you the antibody you will win on that level. No trial and error here at all. O_o
This more of a problem with golden seeds wich are needed for evolution.

I don’t see how you finish that game in 5 hours without bruteforcing your way through with gems O_o

[Solo_Wing]

[quote=“oXydo CHRONOS”]There are 4 missions that need some money, only the bosses.
The most expensive, the last boss, is 3000 credits, the very first mission can give you more than 10000.[/quote]

Hmm, if you’re right about that I’ll update the review to make it clearer that not all of the missions require credits to begin. Will double check tomorrow.

The last mission may not require too many credits to begin, but you also need to factor in revival gems used in each attempt which are quite costly.

[quote]The red dragon is not really an agile dragon.
More agile dragons will be less floaty and less agile dragon, well, more floaty :p[/quote]

I agree, but the fact that default dragon’s controls are floaty doesn’t leave a good impression.

The game will ask you if you want to use a revival gem when you HP hit zero not in the end of a mission in particular o_O (didn’t really see what you mean there XD)

It won’t always be at the end of a mission when you need to use a revival gem, but often it will be near the end of mission when you die. This may not be a deliberate decision of the developers of course, but it was often the case that I would die when I had almost completed a mission.

But, again, you should not use that much and what you gain through normal pack should be more than sufficient.

Depends on your skill level. Perhaps you are better at the game than me.

The type of most of the ennemies you’ll see during a mission is clearly shown in the mission screen. That give you the antibody you will win on that level. No trial and error here at all. O_o

Sometimes, but not always. The mission screen only shows three (I think) enemies that are found in the mission, and the rare types are not always shown.

I don’t see how you finish that game in 5 hours without bruteforcing your way through with gems O_o

I did use a number of gems, but my point is that this is part of the game by design. A better designed game wouldn’t allow you to get through most of the game by buying things.

Anyway, I would be happy to post an alternative review to counter the negativity in my one if you want to write one.

[The_Ancient]

I wish I could make a truly informed comment on this, but I can’t since I haven’t played the game. However, extrapolating from a lot of the reactions both now and in the run up to this recent launch period the amount of scapegoating is plain enough, generally speaking. So not to make this an issue of any individual opinions, what I find myself thinking about is how these “pay-to-win” systems are causing people to be conscious about their reactions to challenge hurdles in a way they usualluy have not been.

I’m typically very critical of games that reinforce trial and error learning curves without being entirely upfront about it, which has become more common in my perception. So what these microtransactions are doing is earmarking engineered fail condiditions that have always been there, such that people find themselves feeling cheated and exploited, rather than perceiving them as an option to bypass the arbitrary challenge mechanics that they have unconsciously been able to make peace with before - even if they got angry about it in the moment.

Optimistically, it would be fascinating if the fallout from some of this F2P / microtransaction experimentation was a meaningful reassessment of the underlying psychology of this medium writ large… but that’s no consolation to the victims of the experimentation, if that is indeed what CD represents in the end.

[oXydo_CHRONOS]

I agree, but the fact that default dragon’s controls are floaty doesn’t leave a good impression.

Maybe, but it’s also eaier to learn the game this way.
Beginning withh the White dragon would be a lot harder.

It won’t always be at the end of a mission when you need to use a revival gem, but often it will be near the end of mission when you die. This may not be a deliberate decision of the developers of course, but it was often the case that I would die when I had almost completed a mission.

There is oibviously a lot more chance of dying near the end of the mission.
But i did get killed near the begining of 1 or 2 missions. XD
It’s just a “continue” system, but an infinite if you want to pay one.

Depends on your skill level. Perhaps you are better at the game than me.

I don’t think so
The thing is you should not use more than 1 or 2 gems on a given level.
More mean the dragon is underleveled for the mission or you just took the wrong options.
Just changing your wingman and your skill can affect the result in a big way.
In fact a maxed out Wingman will make your life so much eaiser it’s borderline cheating XD

Sometimes, but not always. The mission screen only shows three (I think) enemies that are found in the mission, and the rare types are not always shown.

I think you mix 2 type of objects here
There are antibodies and rare seeds.
Antibodies give you acces to missions, you can see which type you can get on the mission screen.
Rare golden seeds are needed for evolution and changing element. There is no real information for that but where there are normal type of an ennemy, you have a good chance of seeing the rare type too.
But in both cases, you have to kill a whole squad of ennemies to get it like other bonuses.

I did use a number of gems, but my point is that this is part of the game by design. A better designed game wouldn’t allow you to get through most of the game by buying things.

A without internet game wouldn’t give you the option.
Well, a 2008 one probably wouldn’t too.
That’s how it works today. F2P got big, microtransactions inflated with it, etc etc.
Take it like an arcade game. Not good enough ? Give another gem and continue !

[quote=“Solo Wing”]
Anyway, I would be happy to post an alternative review to counter the negativity in my one if you want to write one. :)[/quote]

That, is way above my skill level

[Draikin]

However, extrapolating from a lot of the reactions both now and in the run up to this recent launch period the amount of scapegoating is plain enough, generally speaking. So not to make this an issue of any individual opinions, what I find myself thinking about is how these “pay-to-win” systems are causing people to be conscious about their reactions to challenge hurdles in a way they usualluy have not been.

I can understand that view but I don’t think it’s quite that simple. I don’t consider the hurdles in Crimson Dragon and those in the Panzer Dragoon games to be the same. They no longer serve to make you a better player, but more as a wall you need to grind or pay through. I never got a game over screen in PD Orta where Orta told me I need to use a revival gem to continue or I’d “lose all my items!”. You can argue that the gems are optional but I’m not convinced that removing the revival gems would suddenly turn the game into the traditional Panzer Dragoon experience. It’s not a last minute addition, the F2P elements were there from the start and they had an impact on the entire design of the game.

Regarding this topic, this article is something I find interesting: Fixing Forza 5: How Turn 10 wants to win fans back

It’s always the same response. They’re sorry that we feel sorry, but somehow it’s still our fault for not understanding them.

I’m not disappointed in people - people feel how they feel. I’m more disappointed in myself that I’ve elicited this reaction in people. I think the biggest travesty for me is how people have misread our intentions, because that’s just been sad - community’s the biggest thing for us, and the whole point is to get people excited about cars and excited about games, so people saying we’ve changed the economy for this reason and we removed this feature for that reason - I understand it, because perception’s reality, and people start believing what they believe, but I know it’s not the thought process we went through to make the decisions we made.

The entire article is a clear example of a non-apology. They “did nothing wrong”, it’s all us misunderstanding their intentions. The reality is that, if there really was no problem and it’s all just our perception of the game, then there would be no need to make changes. But the increase in grind is not something people are misinterpreting, it’s very much real. I think the fact that they are making changes both to Crimson Dragon and Forza 5 says enough.

[oXydo_CHRONOS]

And again, you can pay what you want in Crimson Dragon, your dragons will NOT evolve faster.
You gain XP only by completing missions.
So yes, you have to grind, but there is no easy/cheap way around it.

Wingman can only be paid with credits, so you cannot pay real money for them too.
People just go berserk when they see Microtransactions

[000]

I played through the game, and I didn’t even need to spend any real money on anything. Everything I needed was bought with the game money. I didn’t need to grind very much at all. I did much more grinding when I played Final Fantasy VI.

I think it’s a really good game. It’s almost as good as the Panzer Dragoon games in my opinion. I just wish I could restart it because I would like to hear the story again. I like restarting games for that reason. The ending reminded me of Final Fantasy VIII’s ending in a way.

[Draikin]

People just go berserk when they see Microtransactions

Worth considering is that, if it hadn’t been for the people that criticized the micro-transactions, they wouldn’t have increased the experience you get when finishing missions and lowered the item costs. They changed the game to the point where micro-transactions are basically not needed anymore. In other words, they decreased the grind which in turn means you’re far less likely to resort to buying items with real money.

[oXydo_CHRONOS]

I have more than 600 000 credits and something like 100 regenerators with no use.
The economy in the game probably didn’t need all those changes.

If you play without resorting to multiple regenerators for every level, the microtransactions NEVER served any purpose.

They weren’t needed to begin with if you played the game like it was intended to. Read those reviews, they didn’t.
But yeah maybe I had to replay some missions a little less to have every dragon leveled up because of them. But that, I did for fun.

Play the game, finish it, you’ll understand.

[legaiaflame]

[quote=“Draikin”]

People just go berserk when they see Microtransactions

Worth considering is that, if it hadn’t been for the people that criticized the micro-transactions, they wouldn’t have increased the experience you get when finishing missions and lowered the item costs. They changed the game to the point where micro-transactions are basically not needed anymore. In other words, they decreased the grind which in turn means you’re far less likely to resort to buying items with real money.[/quote]

And that is a good thing. So Microsoft, in the future, don’t even bother implementing micro-transactions in the first place! It just amounts to plain out greed; disconnecting players from the experience!

Make a game to make a profit, but also put your heart and soul into it. Actually, to be quite morbid those two developers who died making Panzer Dragoon Saga, literally put their souls into its development!

[Solo_Wing]

[quote=“oXydo CHRONOS”]I think you mix 2 type of objects here
There are antibodies and rare seeds.
Antibodies give you acces to missions, you can see which type you can get on the mission screen.
Rare golden seeds are needed for evolution and changing element. There is no real information for that but where there are normal type of an ennemy, you have a good chance of seeing the rare type too.
But in both cases, you have to kill a whole squad of ennemies to get it like other bonuses. [/quote]

Well I played through the game again and didn’t have any problem starting the missions. Possibly because I defeated the rare enemies at the time. It wasn’t a huge complaint, anyway.

That, is way above my skill level

I would happy to help out, e.g. with proof reading, if you did decide to write one.

I can understand that view but I don’t think it’s quite that simple. I don’t consider the hurdles in Crimson Dragon and those in the Panzer Dragoon games to be the same. They no longer serve to make you a better player, but more as a wall you need to grind or pay through. I never got a game over screen in PD Orta where Orta told me I need to use a revival gem to continue or I’d “lose all my items!”. You can argue that the gems are optional but I’m not convinced that removing the revival gems would suddenly turn the game into the traditional Panzer Dragoon experience. It’s not a last minute addition, the F2P elements were there from the start and they had an impact on the entire design of the game.

That’s basically how I feel. By basing everything around an economic system (either based on real or imaginary money), the motivations of player have been changed considerably. Basing success around a currency makes the game more about managing resources, which is a fundamental difference in design.

[The_Ancient]

In general response to Draikin and Solo, again this isn’t commenting on any individual reactions, and there is tragedy in Crimson Dragon’s case regardless. The whipping-post that is the Xbox One muddies the water in trying to objectively interpret these reactions wholesale right now, that Forza article is actually more interesting to me because it does not seem at all like the typical PR pablum and yet people seem to resent it all the more for that?

Opinions are far from one sided, but I’m not in any sense playing the apologist for these choices, I don’t like them at all. It’s just that I have a much longer standing perspective of observing how people rationalize scapegoats in their opinions and preferences that are usually extremely imprecise reflections of the true responses of their subconscious. So it’s just very interesting to me to watch stuff like this play itself out.

[Solo_Wing]

It’s just that I have a much longer standing perspective of observing how people rationalize scapegoats in their opinions and preferences that are usually extremely imprecise reflections of the true responses of their subconscious. So it’s just very interesting to me to watch stuff like this play itself out.

Yeah, our subjective vs objective well being often differs greatly. What we prefer often does not correlate with our actual enjoyment.