Be honest - should Amusement Vision really do a PD RPG?

Panzer Dragoon
1

I do not want to sound like suffering from DFS (Disappointed Fanboy Syndrome), but sometimes I wonder whether AV/Smilebit should really do another Panzer Dragoon RPG. Heresy! :wink:

There was much background information and story in Orta (especially in Pandras Box), the gameplay was really good, but the storytelling… was pretty flawed. Did you really get the story without checking the box or asking other fans who unlocked the secrets?

I don’t doubt that they could produce another fantastic shooter, but you need other talents for an RPG.

What do you think about that?

2

Slaps SenorKaffee.

The answer to whether or not we all want another RPG is a resounding yes.

The Panzer games started out as shooters and then evolved into a wonderful, if a little short lived RPG too few people were given the chance to appreciate. Launched from the right platform with a large enough fanbase, a new Panzer Dragoon RPG, in the same vein as Panzer Dragoon Saga, has the potential to reach a much larger audience.

3

Considering my previous history with panzer, ie the saturn games, I had no trouble understanding orta. On that note, for somebody whom hadn’t played any of those games, PD Saga was probably the easiest to pick up and understand from a story perspective. So I can’t imagine it would be much of an issue. The Panzer world is so rich in history/story as it is. Another rpg dealing with what happens to orta, and answering more questions about azel and edge, and their roles in what happened up until that point would not only probably lead more people to orta, but also to the old Saturn games. Maybe not everybody, but I am sure more people would become as enthralled with the games as I am. With all the info they gave out in orta toward the back story, just imagine what they could do with an rpg. My only concern would be sales numbers. I have read some of you talking about Orta having poor sales, but where exactly are you getting these figures? The Saturn games never sold that well, but they still made sequels. You have to figure they have a great game engine for another game already with the work they put into orta. I would hope it wouldn’t cost them too much to create some kind of sequel.

4

I said this a gazillion times before but I still think that a mix between RPG and shooter would provide the best PD game in history ( by far ).

5

Orta sold badly in Japan. Too bad that’s everything that counts for japanese producers.

On the Games Convention 2003 KFC talked with Bernd Berheide from Atari/Infogrames Germany and he told him that they had high expectations for Orta and it sold well.

Again, I do not say that noone should make another Panzer Dragoon RPG, no sir!
I just want to point out that Orta lacks in some aspects crucial for a good RPG - maybe I do the team wrong, but it makes you think.

6

I understood the story in Orta, to me it is no different than the previous PD shooters as they too were vague in storyline, look at the theories that have developed because of it.
I would support another means of a RPG, but of course it would have to live up to its previous games. That is probably my only concern at the moment.

7

[quote=“SenorKaffee”]Orta sold badly in Japan. Too bad that’s everything that counts for japanese producers.

On the Games Convention 2003 KFC talked with Bernd Berheide from Atari/Infogrames Germany and he told him that they had high expectations for Orta and it sold well.

Again, I do not say that noone should make another Panzer Dragoon RPG, no sir!
I just want to point out that Orta lacks in some aspects crucial for a good RPG - maybe I do the team wrong, but it makes you think.[/quote]

The panzer games never sold well in japan. In fact I remember reading that Saga sold especially bad over there for some reason. Europe and the US were always much better markets for Panzer games. I know Orta sold a few hundred thousand, and usually that is enough to make some profit, and hopefully develope another game. I don’t see why you think Orta would make such a bad rpg. Look at Saga, the game just worked. An orta based rpg would work also.

8

Although I really didn’t like the way that Mobo was introduced in the story (Hey, haven’t seen you here before…ten minutes later…Wait! a dragonmare!), I think the rest of the story was reasonably well done. And don’t forget about Iva’s scenarios. That story wasn’t bad either. PD Orta was just a bit too mysterious for its own good. It’s hard to determine how an RPG from the same team would look. A lot depends on the people writing the story and whether or not they get enough time to finish it.

9

To be honest, I thought that Orta’s story was lacking in some ways, but for a shooter, that wasn’t problem. Everything else, needless to say, was breathtaking. Maybe some points in storyline were a bit too mysterious, as D-Unit said, but points around lots of things still developed from it.

Can anyone else here name another shooter that gets this many people discussing it’s storyline, making theories, etc.?

I didn’t think so.

I have my own troubles with the team that made Orta, just as anyone probably would. And just as anyone, I would like to see Team Andromeda completely back in action. But at this point, Sega/Smilebit/AV has my full trust to make a good quality Panzer RPG.

10

Agreed. (Nods).

11

quite a long time since i posted here g

well if a certain someone from Sega of America had not intervened Orta had been released three months earlier with a total hack of a story. I’m sure Abbad has commented on this before.

AV/Smilebit have a great history in arcade and action titles, but as SK pointed out, it takes more than that to produce a good and selling RPG.

and an RPG is what would bring the PD franchise really back. going “back to the roots” is not necessarily a bad thing. but who can expect a shooter to become a triple A title nowadays? they provide much to short gameplay experience for the casual gamer (and there is where the mony is, not the few hundred hardcore PD fans).

AFAIK Orta sold about 210 thousand units worldwide with 70 thousand in Japan, 110 thousand in the US and 30 thousand in europe. considering europe is about 10 percent of the world xbox market (10% of 210 is 21 =) orta sold considerably well in europe (these figures sound reasonable to me, B.B. from atari told me they ordered two palettes wich contain 12 thousand units or so)

these sales are not bad for a shooter! it’s just that the expectations in Japan were much higher. they even had TV spots wich are extremely rare for an action title. Orta was supposed to mark the big return of the PD series.

well first of all, Japanese business people are unbelievable strange.
in Japan the PD franchise is poisonous. ‘it never sold well (in japan and on the saturn!) and it never will sell on any other platform in japan, lets make something new and original like… uh… “let’s make a sonic waterski party team 5” !’

playing orta it is obvious the team spend hours and hours reviewing the old saturn games, and combine the experience into something “new” and bring it to the next level. wich worked, in my opinion Orta is better than Zwei (if you took orta back to the standard of the saturn that is).

I personally think a kickass PD RPG developed for the XBOX 2 as a launch title would work.

first it wouldn’t have much competition on the same platform, maybe a true fantasy live online 2 or something. the xbox lacks RPGs now wich is a major flaw on the japanese market (the PS2 has TONS of RPGs) it is likely the XBOX2 could face the same problem.

second the PD franchise can absolutely work on the US (and of course the slowly growing european) market. have you seen how much references to star wars are in orta? mobo is practically Hand Solo himself =)
the PD world gives so much room for a nice steampunk/fantasy/science fiction setting just like the star wars universe, and as you know KOTOR is a kickass title and shows that even a SW (compared to the value of the brand SW games never sold that well) game can be successful.

third (pointing a little in the direction of first) PDS was brought out in very limited numbers on an already dead platform and got hardly any media attention (apart from the Segata Sanchiro spot in Japan it had practically no advertising abroad). If PDS had been launched on the XBOX instaed of orta it would have certainly sold MUCH better. as i said Japanese business men only see that PDS sold bad, not why it sold bad. it can’t be the failure of terrible timing and catastrophical marketing, so it must be a bad game, right? On the other hand if AV/Smilebit can produce one thing for sure than it’s “graphic dazzlers” like Orta. Combining superb graphics with a good RPG storyline would get a lot of media responce (as did orta) and would therefor sell a lot better.

whatever, i highly doubt we’ll see another PD title ever. And if it would be another hack like Orta I’m not too depressed about it seriously. I’m looking forward to “let’s make a sonice waterski team party 5”.

12

Why not? Orta’s story is much better effort than previous shooters’ one. Why won’t AV be able to deliver a quality RPG?
If you have played PD Saga, you shouldn’t have too much problem to understand Orta’s story. That’s its only big flaw, some cheesy dialogs aside, but it’s “inevitable” if you want to please fans and newcomers. Average panzer fan don’t need to read the encyclopaedia. Newcomers must read it to understand the whole thing and still they have some additionals questions.
The game itself is the beginning of Orta’s great journey. We only know some scratches on surface. There are tons of new and very interesting details about Panzer world in the encyclopaedia. PDO team worked in Orta with a whole new saga and ideas in mind. Orta’s story need a panzer RPG to complete those ideas like PD Saga did with the previous shooters.

[quote=“SenorKaffee”]Orta sold badly in Japan. Too bad that’s everything that counts for japanese producers.

On the Games Convention 2003 KFC talked with Bernd Berheide from Atari/Infogrames Germany and he told him that they had high expectations for Orta and it sold well. [/quote]

Sales numbers:

  • Japan: 43.849 (November)
  • USA: 104,069 (November)
  • UK: 12.709 (April)

I don’t think Orta was made with the japanese market in mind. Anyway, It sold well in Japan if you take into account japanese xbox userbase but very poorly in USA. I don’t know how well it sold in Germany but it bombed in UK too.

13

that’s the point. do you know how many have played PDS (and still remember the story)? maybe 20.000 or so. these are only 10 percent of the units you need to reach the point of break even. and all developers want to make money with their games. if you figures were correct orta reached the B/E but most likely didn’t threw off any revenue.

if you want to sell a game you mustn’t think in fan dimensions.

14

No one wants to doubt PDOs quality as a shooter. It rocked… man did it rock.

But “PDO team worked in Orta with a whole new saga and ideas in mind”? You can say that about “Star Trek: Nemesis”, too, but it doesn’t make the storytelling better.

15

[quote=“lordcraymen”]that’s the point. do you know how many have played PDS (and still remember the story)? maybe 20.000 or so. these are only 10 percent of the units you need to reach the point of break even. and all developers want to make money with their games. if you figures were correct orta reached the B/E but most likely didn’t threw off any revenue.
if you want to sell a game you mustn’t think in fan dimensions.[/quote]

I pointed that in my last post too, lordcraymen. It’s too fan oriented but I think you overdimensioning this thing. Newcomers can’t know who is Orta’s mother/father or what is the dragon but they can feel the touching moment in forbidden memories’ cutscene or the Lagi/Orta relation or Lagi’s determination to protect Orta for example. I think overall story and themes are understandable from newcomers’ point of view but they need the encyclopaedia to tie up some little and important details. Other videogames like Metal Gear did the same thing (How many people played MSX Metal Gears?) and sold great everywhere. Anyway, I don’t think this is one reason because Orta failed saleswise but bad timing (January) and choices (Atari? Worst publisher ever… at least in Spain).

Sales Numbers (updated):

  • Japan: 43.850 + 1114 (Platinum Collection) = 44.964 (November / Source: Famitsu)
  • USA: 104.069 (November / Source: NPD)
  • UK: 12.709 (April / Source: Chart Track/ELSPA)

I’ve post my figures’ sources and added Platinum Collection sales. Don’t cover total sales but they are the most accurate we can get. Overall, we can estimate 200.000 units worldwide.

I didn’t explain very well. We discussed Orta’s story some months ago and I explained why I think it’s good. It’s a bit long to write again now.
In my last post, I wanted to point Orta’s story is only the beginning. We need to know the end to judge properly like we do with the previous trilogy. Moreover, Orta is a shooter and it can’t compare to PD Saga storywise. PDO team overcomed some limitations of this genre to include a interesting story. Were they successful? I think so. Was shooter genre the best way to continue the panzer “trilogy” after PD Saga? Maybe not.

16

I think that KFC had many good points in there, and I think that it is really unfortunate (and fortunate at the same time :slight_smile: that PD doesn’t have the sort of fan following as , say, FF or something. snickers

I’m pretty sure all of us would give a lot to see another Panzer RPG points to "Things you would do for PD thread, and I think that the RPG, if released would actually do very well (provided it has advertising this time around :\ )

But unfortunately the gaming business does not go simply off fan sales, and, as KFC said, this might prevent those Japanese business men from making a new PD game.

17

[quote=“lordcraymen”]
I personally think a kickass PD RPG developed for the XBOX 2 as a launch title would work.

first it wouldn’t have much competition on the same platform, maybe a true fantasy live online 2 or something. the xbox lacks RPGs now wich is a major flaw on the japanese market (the PS2 has TONS of RPGs) it is likely the XBOX2 could face the same problem.[/quote]

Would it work? Probably. Would I want it to happen? No. I don’t want to have to spend another $300 on a console just for one game =/

Personally, I think if another PD game is made, it will probably be the last, as the series never really caught on to anyone other than “hardcore” gamers and never caught on in japan, therefore (according to our Japanese friends) “must be a bad series and should end.” So if another RPG is made, let’s hope that it can live up to our expectations.

18

Eight years ago, would you have expected Team Andromeda to pull off an RPG of the calibre that they did…?

19

Let it just be stated that if I don’t see a new PD game in 2 years minimum I’m gonna show the world why I’m called Berserker.

Oh and TSE : I’m glad PD hasn’t the atenttion FF has.You know why?Cause the FF games are made to be fun and enjoyable.The PD (even if they aren’t met to :P) are made to be fun as well but they can also fill me (and other people 2 I think :P) with something else that is much greater than simple adrenaline.

I might be getting ridiculous with all this PD love but part of me came from these games and …

Finally : I am absolutely sure that a fun and special PD game can be made.And I’m absolutely sure that game can sell thousands of copies.Marketing is the key word.The other key word is creative/artistic care…

20

Marketing was never a strength of Sega. How long did it take them to come up with a flagship franchise like Sonic?