Though this tends to be par for the course with videogames, I feel as though it’s terrible by design, considering how utterly outrageous everything is in the game.
[quote=“Parn”]
Though this tends to be par for the course with videogames, I feel as though it’s terrible by design, considering how utterly outrageous everything is in the game.[/quote]
Yeah, it’s supposed to be horrible by design, but this goes beyond that. Like, unbearably bad, rather than just campy.
Nice comments and I agree 100%.
This is nice game , brilliant in parts but way overrated too. It’s no God Of War, it’s no O.TO.GI II , no Ninja Blade (well I loved it) and its not even fit to lick Ninja Gaiden 1 & II (its story equally bad though) boots, wayt better than the DMC series though imo
Maybe the press are just going nuts over it , because its made by the ex-clover guys ?
My major problem with the game , other than its gets far too confusing for its own good, or the lack of a Button to block. Is that the Cut Scenes go on for far too long
To be honest, I think it’s better than Ninja Gaiden (haven’t played 2), from what little I’ve played of it thus far. It’s not quite God of War, but the focus is very different. God of War is much more deliberate - each attack you do is meant to be brutal and supposed to be an epic act in and of itself. But with Bayonetta, the focus is on managing the chaos - juggling multiple enemies, keeping your combos going, seeing what craziness you can summon. It provides a different sort of action game thrill, but I’ve had more fun with God of War so far.
Now, that’s setting the bar extremely high, though. God of War is one of the best action games ever made IMO. I do feel, though, that the game is better than Otogi 2. There were parts of that game that were extremely fun, but between the controller lag and the bit of grinding you have to do to power up your characters, there are definitely frustrations to be found in that game.
So far I’ll rate Bayonetta with Ninja Gaiden 2 overall, though that might not hold… I spent all last evening on chapter 5, and it was becoming a chore. I seem to have invested in an item that makes the fights far more punishing in general, when what I was expecting was just more enemies in general. That sort of defines this game for me, it’s an exercise in guesswork, and mostly guessing wrong; like I still think there may be a more elegant solution to the Stay in the Air challenge than the one I eventually came up with, but trying it for literally over an hour, how/why/what/when you need to get the gun boost or another jump just seems random. Again there’s a crucial deficit of cues in the game.
Although the demo gave me enough to anticipate Bayonetta would still fundamentally be a “Hideki Kamiya: Sadistic Cheap Action King” game… I wasn’t entirely prepared for the gruesome reality. Basically, at a certain point it says: “So you thought you knew how to play this game huh? You thought you could just, I dunno, have fun or something? HAH! Now suck it bitch!!!” And the rival boss just epitomized that, I died so many times trying to play the game how I wanted to, before finally giving in and realizing you’re intended to just cheese it.
Which is why Ninja Gaiden still stands completely apart, because it does not commit that cardinal sin of fabricating challenge by arbitrarily subtracting empowerment, with some incidental exceptions obviously. Every other game mentioned does. That said, the universally cheapass bosses of NG2 bring it down a notch from the original, despite overall still being better in that respect than anything else.
That was done on purpose to keep players on the offensive, and I think it works brilliantly. Together with Dodge Offset (in the middle of a combo you can hold the attack button while dodging and then continue your combo afterwards), I personally think the gameplay sets a new standard for the genre. That said it is possible to acquire an item that allows you to block later on, it’s more of a parry actually that requires very good timing.
There are a number of ways to beat that challenge, though using Kulshedra is by far the easiest way.
[quote=“Abadd”]To be honest, I think it’s better than Ninja Gaiden (haven’t played 2), from what little I’ve played of it thus far. It’s not quite God of War, but the focus is very different. God of War is much more deliberate - each attack you do is meant to be brutal and supposed to be an epic act in and of itself. But with Bayonetta, the focus is on managing the chaos - juggling multiple enemies, keeping your combos going, seeing what craziness you can summon. It provides a different sort of action game thrill, but I’ve had more fun with God of War so far.
Now, that’s setting the bar extremely high, though. God of War is one of the best action games ever made IMO. I do feel, though, that the game is better than Otogi 2. There were parts of that game that were extremely fun, but between the controller lag and the bit of grinding you have to do to power up your characters, there are definitely frustrations to be found in that game.[/quote]
I disagree 100% 
.
I consider Ninja Gaiden 1 the game of the last Decade , so well made and near perfection in every area , with the best combat system ever seen .
NG II isn’t quite so perfect or as well made, but it improves on the basic formula and the Battle system tuned to near perfection
It’s a shame that its not until Chaper 7 (the best action stage to any game ever imo) does the game get going
O.TO.GI II is still one of the most beautiful looking games , and a game where the sense of destruction is almost unmatched. Its funny how most Japanese developers ,can’t handle interactive environments, yet FS were handling in this game last gen .
I think its a better game , and while the combat is slower than BAY
At least when I died in O.TO.GI I knew it was down to me In Bay, the action so insane, its hard to keep up, and I die as a result (don’t like that)
I will agree with you on GOW though 
I think its leads to unfair deaths , and I really wish they was a separate button to bloke (like in NG)
I can’t agree about the blocking TA, I really don’t want every game to have the same mechanics over and over. Bayonetta is clearly designed in detail around it’s system, and it’s a really good one. The problem is that, there’s a high/low grade to the mechanics, and it’s execution of the high grade is basically a FAIL. It’s conspicuous how much there is to help the player cheese though the game, compared to DMC or most any other close cousin. One could button mash through pretty easy, with all the recovery items you can make and defensive playing. In which case it’s a beautiful but empty game.
The high grade mechanics are brilliant in theory, and great fun in practice to a point. But then the execution progressively heaps layers of bullshit on top of it all, as you say it’s too visually confusing for the timing demanded. And the ‘telegraphs’ are just another lie in the end, both visually and aurally their intent is to fake you out more than actually help you. It’s the most indulgent thing I’ve played in a long long time, the very definition of unfair.
Could you clarify that point a bit, I’m not exactly sure what you’re referring to with the ‘telegraphs’?
D-Unit, as an example you’ll see most often: the Applauds have an overhead attack with a wind-up animation that’s near identical whether they release an instant smash or, instead jump with a delay and then slash down at about twice the range; and the exact same ringing sound effect happens too. And those are just grunts!
The timing is intrinsically arbitrary in this game, and you have to arbitrarily learn the timing for every last enemy and attack, basically from scratch over and over. So yeah, the ‘telegraphs’ are literally a lie, since every single enemy can and does arbitrarily vary the timing of their attacks, as a constant.
I’m sure there’s people with reflexes more up to the task than mine, but Bayonetta’s system represents itself a certain way, and that representation is a falsehood in the end.
I assume you’re referring to this attack: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Wk_xsxQORA#t=0m23. The animation is somewhat similar, although the simple fact that the enemy is some distance away from you already reveals the fact that he’s going to jump. To be honest I’ve never really questioned these things while playing the game. I don’t think the game ever fools you into thinking the timing between the “weapon flash” and the actual hit is always going to be the same between different attacks and enemies, at least I never got that impression.
Well good for you then. However, the whole reason I remember that example particularly is because of the number of times I’ve dodged, at close range expecting the quick hit, only to move out of normal range but still get hit by the jumping attack before I’ve even recovered from the dodge. So no, it’s not as consistent as you imply there. Although, the fact I’ve been trying to play with that god damn perma-taunt accessory equipped, may mean I’m seeing behavior you rarely do?
Here’s my issue: Witch Time is this game’s MacGuffin, it’s the primary carrot on the mechanics stick. It tells you right up front that this is what you most want to get… then it arrays a hundred different factors that seem to have the express function of making you regret that you tried to get the Witch Time! The mechanic is defined wonderfully, but nearly everything built up from it works against informing my reflexes in a natural way. I can’t be certain, but it feels like they didn’t even attempt to factor in the minimum control latency, which would be unforgivable for such an arbitrarily important point of impact timing issue. But again, they’re deliberately fucking with the player anyway, I mean even the sound cues will randomly lag at times.
EDIT: **** AND MAYBE SOME MINOR SPOILERAGE AHEAD AS WELL ****
…OK, mostly the only play I’ve got in today has been trying to get past the 5 Torture Attack challenge since I quit last night. I actually went back to that chapter cause I thought I may have missed a record piece, and found that portal I’d missed as well. Kinda wishing I’d left it alone now but oh well… anyway:
Yet another pristine example of this tone I’m getting from the whole experience. Up to this point, every challenge has been in a certain mold, with a very limited set of parameters that need to be met, presumably to force you to get used to another element of the system. EVERYTHING about the sparse information you get at the beginning of this challenge, given the precedents, suggests that the problem placed before you is how to manage the 5 TAs on a limited number of enemies. Therefore - like the fucking idiot I obviously am - I play it over and over taunting the enemies to get spirit power. And of course it was a complete waste of time - and more importantly, a waste of my enthusiasm for the game - since out of the blue, and as per usual without any clear information, the challenge is now a completely different animal. Nothing but a long long grind of super punishing enemies…
The pause on hits in the game is yet another FAIL, having the effect of further confusing my natural reflexes for the timing. Though it’s helped me analyze how wrong things are, since it can make it really obvious there’s virtually no time between the last moment of a wind-up and connecting for so many enemy attacks. And visibility becomes it’s biggest issue in the challenges, to the point that literally at least half the time I get screwed it’s from something that was either not visible because of the camera, or obscured by a screen completely covered by a gratuitous effect. There’s truly limitless layers of arbitrariness to this game.
And then… JAPANESE CONTROL FASCISTS! (and yeah I know that seems grammatically redundant) Up till now I hadn’t thought it’d be a deal breaker, but using the right trigger for dodging really sucks. The way I’m used to holding the controller leaves the left trigger comfortably under a free index finger, but if my right hand is positioned mainly for using the face buttons, neither my right index or middle finger are comfortable in a position of readiness on the triggers. I don’t know what the hell happened to make this mentality of forcing people to play like they’re a fucking robot such a universal brain fart, but there’s some people that need to answer for some CRIMES.
That item will cause enemies to attack faster and more frequently, it’s not something I’d recommend using in a first playthrough (except for certain circumstances).
Are you playing this on Xbox360 or PS3? I can only really speak for the Xbox360 version…
** MINOR SPOILERS **
That’s not idiotic at all, it’s very much the correct decision. Managing those 5 TA on a limited number of enemies is indeed the real challenge. You’ll want to use Scarborough Fair and drag out the combo’s (without activating Wicked Weaves) to use the TA on the weaker ones when you have less of a risk of being hit. I’ll admit that there is a crucial piece of information missing though, you actually need to kill the enemies with the TA for it to count.
That said Ancient, those Alfheims and items you’re using are things you can do on a new game+. The game remembers which hearts/pearls/Alfheims you already visited and you get to keep all the items you’ve acquired. The Alfheims are supposed to be a challenge after all, they’re more difficult and ‘unfair’ than anything the regular game will throw at you.
Sorry I just don’t agree . I don’t like the fact that one has to time the block/doge move at all . I would have liked a dictated button , for the user to be able to block at all times .
That said , the game is great and of the creature designs, are simply stunning to look at
Blocking isn’t Bayonetta’s style to begin with. Part of her character when being attacked is not being there, as evidenced by numerous cutscenes. She isn’t Ryu where he can hold a sword in front of his face and survive a nuclear detonation from an exploding mutant armadillo.
As such, it plays very differently than the other action games. Mastering dodge offset is the key to doing well in the game, moreso I’d say than witch time.
And if I had known what it does I wouldn’t have bought it, but I did, and by the time I realized what it was about I’d got used to it, and didn’t really want to start chapter 5 again to get something different. As I already mentioned, the description gave me the impression I’d face more enemies (or more often), which sounded fun. But that’s not what it does, what it does is less fun than that.
** MINOR SPOILERS **
I eventually started doing exactly that, but that’s still not the point: 5 Torture Attacks on 12 enemies is about average anyway, that’s not a big deal at all, the big deal is surviving the last 2 waves with only 3 hits to take.
Understood, but just because they’re optional challenges does not excuse it for being extra cheap. The Alfheims also represent lessons, an opportunity to try to master something new, so it’s very unfortunate when that becomes the main lesson you take away from them: how unfair the game really is. Though unequipping the Gaze of Despair reduces the frequency of unseen hits from off camera, but other than that it doesn’t fundamentally change the level of challenge for me. It really bothers me to not finish something like that though, especially when I’ve been so close several times.
So it sounds like you aren’t even trying to get the WT timing most of the time you dodge? That’s going to be safer and more consistent obviously. And I may have started using dodge offset a lot more… if the shitty game let me use a dodge button that’s comfortable! But it is a very fascist kind of game all round, the way of playing that is fun for me, would seem to be the wrong way.
And I’m playing the 360 version of course, but I’m convinced now, this game is fundamentally broken. Again the hit pauses help to show it, I’ve been able to see attacks frozen for an instant simultaneous with my RT press, and things progress with me getting hit anyway. Particularly versus Grace & Glory, not only are their attacks faster than most other enemies, but the window of opportunity for witch time is also compressed… limitless layers of arbitrariness…
I’m not saying this gratuitously at all, in clinical terms I honestly believe Hideki Kamiya may be a sadist. There’s got to be something wrong with someone’s psyche to make these sorts of decisions.
[quote=“Parn”]. She isn’t Ryu where he can hold a sword in front of his face and survive a nuclear detonation from an exploding mutant armadillo.
[/quote]
Kratos is no Ryo Hayabusa , he can block , he can also dodge attacks too.
In Bayonetta one choose would weapon to use , either a sword/axe like weapon , or gun based. I see no reason when one is welding sword/Axe , why one couldn’t use that to block .
I can see why some people might thing the timed dodge move , makes the game more skillfull , to me its just makes the game a little bit frustrating
According to Chart-Track, Bayonetta entered the UK charts at #5 (week ending 9 January), ahead of Darksiders (#8). The game entered at the #2 position on the Xbox360 full price list, behind MW 2, and at the #3 position on the PS3 list. This doesn’t seem like such a bad start, especially since it wasn’t on sale for the entire week. It remains to be seen how long it can stay in the top 20 though…
That is going to be key. Seeing all the AAA titles queuing up for release later this month and next month, Bayonetta is going to have to fight for dear life to keep the sales figures up.
But, kudos to Platinum and Sega for the high scores, though.
It’d be nice to see Bayonetta at least close in on the million mark worldwide, there hasn’t been very much exploiting the 360 hardware in this old-school way, I wanna see more, and if it does well enough PG may feel it’s worth it to do another 360 lead. It’s the best fit for that style, I assume they feel the same way.
For that matter I’d love to see more games pull out something special on PS3 as well. Even though I never bought the hype for a moment, the power and flexibility of Cell still inspires the imagination. More image based processes, like maybe generating dynamic normal-map data, could see some really unique and dramatic results eventually.