An idea for a real time Panzer Dragoon RPG

Panzer Dragoon
1

I’ve been thinking about how a real time Panzer Dragoon RPG or action adventure game could work for a while, so I thought I’d share my thoughts here and see what Panzer fans thought of it. The Xbox’s controller-S would be the ideal control pad, although the controls could easily be converted to the PS2 or Gamecube’s controller.

Exploration: The dragon would be controlled in real time, much like in Panzer Dragoon Saga, except that the A button would be used to shoot and lock on with the dragon’s lasers, the right trigger would be used to move the dragon forward, and the rest of the controls would be much the same. However, the target would appear if the player held down the A button and then could lock on to multiple targets while the dragon was still moving. For example, the “break” items in Saga could be accessed while the dragon was flying forward… there would be no need for the dragon to stop while the item was being ‘flung back’ towards the screen.

Enemies: Enemies would be roaming around large areas in real time, so there’d be no random battles. After a while new enemies would spawn somehow (for example, there could be a queen monster that breeds new monsters, or an imperial base somewhere that launches new ships), so the areas would never have no enemies unless it made sense storywise.

Combat: When the player guided the dragon too close to an enemy, you would kind of “lock on” to the enemy, so that the dragon couldn’t fly away simply by flying away normally. The controls would switch to PDS battle controls, except that you wouldn’t be limited to four different places, the dragon could be moved fluidly in any position around the enemy and would be able to attack in real time. However, this would cause a problem if the player was trying to aim, and ended up moving as well, so I’d make so that you would have to hold down the right trigger while moving in a direction with the left analog. However, moving and aiming at the same time might sometimes be useful, such as in the PD shooters when you’re aiming and dodging shots from the front.

Basically, the battles would play out a lot like Panzer Dragoon Orta’s boss fights, but without the need to change the camera with the L and R triggers; the screen would always be facing the enemy like in PDS.

Berserk Attacks/Items: Four different berserk attacks or items that were used commonly could be assigned to different D-Pad directions, so that there’d be little need for menus during combat. Also, four additional berserk attacks/items could be assigned to the D-Pad for when the left trigger was held down. Additional items and berserks could be used by going into an additional menu, perhaps by pressing Back and going into a menu (the game would pause while in this menu, otherwise things would get a bit hectic…). So, it would kind of work much like Phantasy Star Online in this aspect, or more recently, Fable.

Morphing: Morphing would be similar to Panzer Dragoon Saga, but it would take place in real time, while the player was in the midst of battle or while exploring an area. The right analog stick would be used to morph the dragon… each direction on the stick would give the dragon more defence, attack, spiritual, etc, while moving it in the opposite direction would decrease these abilities, as in PDS. A small circle in a corner of the screen might be necessary to show what form the dragon was currently in.

The Radar: Lastly, the radar that shows where the dragon is located around the enemy/enemies would be placed somewhere on the screen, however it would be a little different. Because the dragon could now be located 360 degrees anywhere around the enemy there’d need to be more than four ‘hot spots’. I’d say, that eight would probably be enough or else it would get too confusing. The other thing that would need to be taken into consideration is if the dragon could now fly over and under the enemy, as that would add more complexity and would probably require the use of two radars, one showing the enemy from above, and the other from below… something like the image below, but of higher quality (obviously):

http://www.panzerdragoon.net/temp/battle_radar.png

So, these are my ideas for a real time Panzer Dragoon RPG. There’d still be experience points, rankings, and other features that made Panzer Dragoon Saga great. What do you think?

2

sounds interesting, i came up with my own little tweaks to some of your systems (whatever they are worth) but i am too tired to post them now. i did want to ask - to make sure i am ready the radars correctly since the radars are different between the shooters and saga and you are blending them

if the dragon is the triangle, then the enemy is above and behind the dragon or if the enemy is the triangle, then the dragon is above and behind?

i thought of a way to show both above and side views in one radar but if there were to be two radars i would suggest rotating the triangle in the side view 90 degrees counter-clockwise :slight_smile:

oh wait, i misunderstood your radars! i see now that one is the beneath view… i half understand that. i told you i was tired :smiley:

let me explain my above/side radar when i am more smart (when i wake up). i also have some different ideas that you might like for a propulsion system. but it is definitely a promising idea.

3

Alright, I’ll look forward to hearing your ideas or improvements to this system.

Basically, for anyone who’s having trouble working out my system, the Above View is the standard Panzer Dragoon Saga but with nine possible danger spots (eight around the enemy, and one above the enemy which is the white circle in the middle (which should really be grey…). The dragon is yellow cross, and the enemy is the black triangle.

The Beneath View is the Above View flipped around the other way. But instead of showing above the enemy in the middle circle, it shows what is below it… in this case, a dangerous area.

I suppose a sphere radar might work, but like Megatherium, it’s getting to late for me to give that idea careful consideration…

4

nice ideas. have you considered what controlling a party in realtime would be like? cuz this is something that would be most likely seen in a next game, sega wants to get PD away from it’s “a boy and his dog” image.

5

I totally agree with this- the next Panzer should be an Action-RPG. Turn-based RPGs are really a dying breed, and if you aren’t a marque title, you aren’t going to be bringing in the consumers. Random combat must die.

If you look at what games are really selling well, it is “Multi-Genre Action Games” - basically games like Grand Theft auto, where there is a a linear story but you can do all kinds of things out of order. Zelda the Windwalker (and Beyond Good and Evil and Jak and Daxter 2) was actually was the same kind of thing- you could get in your boat and do anything, but you needed certain key things before you could go into some areas and progress the plot.

They could totally make a Panzer game in the same way, where you fly around in the dragoon and can explore a whole living world of old ruins and stuff at your own pace, but also progress the story when you met certain criteria. And just like GTA and Zelda, some areas (interiors) would only be accessible by foot.

They haven’t really done this before- as linear as all the shooters were, Saga was a very linear RPG, with only a few reasons to go back to an area and very few areas you could go to ahead of the story (were there any?)

6

I like the idea of a party based system; I’m just not sure how it would work in an action game. Most party based games that I know of are turned based, or semi real time (like Final Fantasy VII or Grandia 2). The problem I find with those games is there isn’t a lot tactics involved. One of the charms of PDS (and PDO) was the ability to position the dragon around enemy. It made PDS a lot more fun IMO. How could secondary characters be controlled, unless they were automated?

I suppose it could work a bit like KOTOR, but in real time, and with the other features I mentioned in the previous post.

A turn based party game could work quite well, the main problem being the one that Lagi mentioned:

I think modern games have proven that RPGs can work just fine without random encounters, so I’d be surprised if they were kept in the next RPG. PDS was presumably just restricted by of what the Saturn was capable of.

Even the next Final Fantasy game is getting rid of random battles…

The thing I’d like to see kept in the Panzer Dragoon series is the ‘circling combat’ system, in some shape of form. A duel analog setup (like flying the banshee in Halo) would probably prove popular, but it wouldn’t make the gameplay very unique compared to other series’…

[quote=“lagi_webmaster”]They could totally make a Panzer game in the same way, where you fly around in the dragoon and can explore a whole living world of old ruins and stuff at your own pace, but also progress the story when you met certain criteria. And just like GTA and Zelda, some areas (interiors) would only be accessible by foot.

They haven’t really done this before- as linear as all the shooters were, Saga was a very linear RPG, with only a few reasons to go back to an area and very few areas you could go to ahead of the story (were there any?)[/quote]

No, there weren’t any (that I can remember). Areas only appeared on the world map, once Edge heard about them in a conversation.

Those ideas sound good to me. I’d like to see a plot worthy of PDS that the player could go straight through if he/she wanted to (and maybe even with multiple plot routes :)), as well as a huge world that the player could explore and be involved in, with lots of interesting side quests, etc.

7

[quote=“lagi_webmaster”]
They haven’t really done this before- as linear as all the shooters were, Saga was a very linear RPG, with only a few reasons to go back to an area and very few areas you could go to ahead of the story (were there any?)[/quote]

I’m not sure what you meant by linear, because I for example hat games that make you go to places all over again. I was so mad at Gash when he threw away those precious ancient parts and I had to go to Georgious all again! IMHO making(!) the player go back and forth between settings all the time is bad game design.

8

It isn’t so much as going back and forth, it is just making the world larger than the linear story dictates. Zelda has always done a really good job at this.

In regards to ‘a boy and his dog’ (which I don’t think is a bad thing- look at the emotional connection between two characters in ICO) , I have always felt the next Panzer RPG would be cooler if you didn’t have a dragon for a while, or if you did, it would stay small (like the end of Orta) for a significant part of the gameplay (like almost half). That way, you would really appreciate the dragoon at full adullt strength, and you could really tell an interesting story with your main character before he was a ‘chosen’ one.

9

I still haven’t placed ICO. Time to talk my friend into loaning me his PS2 over the holidays.

I agree that the player shouldn’t be forced through a game level (or back through it), unless there is a good reason for it. One of the great things about Panzer Dragoon Saga is that the game didn’t force you to do many of these ‘fetch quests’ that a lot of RPGs use to increase the length of the story.

Man, Panzer Dragoon Saga rules.

A bunch of interesting and plot relevant side quests in a potential Panzer Dragoon 5 would do wonders to increasing the length of the game though.

10

oh man, how I hate the story of orta, it realy utterly sucks. if abadd didn’t spent half a year trying to make it halfway understandable, the dragon would actually talk. yeah talkt, with his own lips, like muppet!

and I so hate the toally clueless and non emotional death of lagi in the end, itss like the team said “oh we didn’t have any clue what the story was about, ahh screw the whole thing”. and then in a strange half assed attempt make a cheesy cheesy offspring scene, it sickens me. seriously.

compared to saga’s bittersweet and heartbreaking finale, it’s a bad joke.

I honestly don’t accept orta as a main plot of the PD storyline, in a way as I don’t accept midichloreans as an explanation of the force or jarjar binks.

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in a way as I don’t accept midichloreans as an explanation of the force or jarjar binks.<<

ha ha! Anyone watch the Star Wars documentary? You watch it, and you forgot how cool George Lucas was- he shunned hollywood, made the fx house industry, created merchandisng, etc. Hard to believe.

I hear you on Orta’ story. I don’t hate it, but it feels more like a side story, like a TV series that is based off a movie, or a comic book continuation of a movie. They ditched too many elements that I cared about- lagi just isn’t enough in a different world.

Solo- play ICO- it is great … it is like an 8 hour game, you could beat it on a Saturday…

12

The idea of a muppet like dragon talking is… well, it’s quite sickening actually.

I didn’t think that Orta’s story was that bad. As a stand-alone story it isn’t much, but it acted as nice epilogue to Panzer Dragoon Saga. The ending was unspectacular, the game could have done with a nice FMV ending after the dragon’s death, and so I’m with you on that.

You’ve got to remember that Panzer Dragoon Orta is just a shooter, and how many shooters actually have ‘decent’ storylines? Not many that I can think of. It’s no Saga, so I don’t see how it can really be compared. Drawing parallels with Zwei would be fairer. I don’t think Smilebit set out to surpass Saga when they developed Orta, true?

Yeah, I’ve seen it. It was interesting the way he put it. Something like: “I’ve become like the entity I’ve always loathed”.

13

I have no idea to what smilebit “set out” to, but i guess they most of all wanted to make PD game that actually sold. orta should mark the return of the series, but Sega didn’t give much money so they pretty much could only make something shooter like.
the thing about the old games however is that the team actually made gold out of nothing. they really made designs first regardless of the capabilites of the hardware and then tried to incorporate them into the game as good as possible. do you remember the realtime sequence when edge comes into anjou’s tent for the first time? there are volumetric lightbeams.

todays machines can do pretty much everything you want, you don’t realy have to try to stick with less then 30 polygons or texturesizes like 128*128 pixels for a whole level. and it shows. you can argue if it’s worth spending the time to draw your own textures in photoshop or even on canvas and scan them. but in my opinion it’s worth it.

and it’s not only about the graphics, the old games are polished like that in almost every aspect.

and i agree, ICO is a great game, and IMHO has that polished look I wanted for ORTA. I’ve seen the design of Wanda to Kyozou (wanda and the giants aka ICO2) at TGS and it looks phantastic.

14

I won’t argue with you there, because I also agree that the old games did feel more polished (in case anyone was wondering, I do prefer the art style of Zwei over Orta, but I don’t think that changing it for Orta was necessarily a bad thing).

Panzer Dragoon Orta’s art style is still beautiful in it’s own way. Take this early screenshot for example. I don’t see why the graphics or art style in it is bad, even if it doesn’t maximise the use of the hardware as much as the Saturn games did:

panzerdragoon.net/screenshot … hot_17.jpg

What is up with the view that everything has to be bigger and better to be worthy of being part of a series? Panzer Dragoon Orta told it’s story and did what it did well: it provided a fun and evolved Panzer Dragoon shooter in a future era of the old PD world.

15

Yes but Orta brought too much change after only 40 years.That alone is a bit unrealistic.Orta brought too much pink and violet and statues with breats and worms with giant tongues and flower like enemies.

It felt even a bit sissy if you ask me.

I also would like a PD Action RPG and I totally agree (I even thought up of something quite similar) with your Navigatio system.I would love to join PD RPG and PD shooter while roaming.

Craymen : Thing is party games tend to be less entertaining as far as a plot is concerned.Also to have a party in a PD game would be sorta of difficult because if you still wanna put dragons in the game…

16

you are very right- hard to think about it now, but the ‘reflecting’ water fx in the caverns in Zwei were way ahead of their time.

[quote=“GehnTheBerserker”]Yes but Orta brought too much change after only 40 years.That alone is a bit unrealistic.Orta brought too much pink and violet and statues with breats and worms with giant tongues and flower like enemies.

It felt even a bit sissy if you ask me.[/quote]

I think that is the funny thing- They were trying to make a Panzer that would appeal to more people, but intsead they turned more people off! I think the old Panzer style, coupled with the new graphics techniques of the current generation would have brought far more people on aboard.

And that really is too bad, because people also just weren’t interested in a rail shooter. Something like the kind of game Solo mentions would have brought more people in to the series.

17

yeah, but business people try to calculate riscs, and not possible profit. it has nearly nothing to do with logic or statics, unfortunately.

nothing ventured, nothing gained, but nothing lost at the same time.

18

That was Paet, not Gash. Be ashamed, sir.

19

you are so right! it’s gash who actually gave edge the proper parts which paet just threw away again and was more interested into the dragon than anything else.

it’s been almost a year since I played the game, I guess orta kinda brainwashed me =D seeing your name in the credits everytime you beat the game kinda gets to your head you know… =D

20

Oh, shh you :stuck_out_tongue:

[quote=“GehnTheBerserker”]Yes but Orta brought too much change after only 40 years.That alone is a bit unrealistic.Orta brought too much pink and violet and statues with breats and worms with giant tongues and flower like enemies.

It felt even a bit sissy if you ask me. [/quote]

The statue of the seventh emperor didn’t fit into the Panzer Dragoon world very well in my opinion. The plant like boss at the end of the Altered Genos level was cool though. Panzer Dragoon Saga also had some plant-like enemies (the Absorbora were part plant, part animal). I liked some of the werider creatures/designs in PDO that still belonged in the Panzer Dragoon world, but were different at the same time.

About the 40 years thing… I’d say it was too short too, if it hadn’t be for the huge effect that the Great Fall had on the world: “the time of greatest turmoil that man has ever known since the fall of the Ancient Age”. I found it nice to see that Edge’s sacrifice had such a powerful effect on the PD world, even if that was just an excuse for Smilebit to make a different art style (which it probably was)…

Maybe we’ll still see a game like that, one day? I’d like to see a game like that as well.