What I think would be a good way to reintroduce people to the PD series and to make more people interested in the Panzer world, would be to take the 3 Panzer Dragoon games that came out on Sega Saturn so long ago, Panzer Dragoon, Panzer Dragoon Zwei, and Panzer Dragoon Saga and remake them all into rpg’s except Panzer Dragoon Saga, all in next generation graphics! This would allow people who never got to play the old Panzer games to truly see what they were missing. By doing this, there would be a good chance that the Panzer Dragoon series would climb out of the ashes and be truly reborn again and seemingly more popular to many more people. This would instill a bright future for the series and I believe more games would be made because of it. Well, that’s just my idea of what I think SEGA should do for this dying series, reintroduce it by making the first two games into rpg’s no more rail shooters! Any other thoughts?
A) The series has already been reindtroduced with PDO.
B) The first two games cannot be made into RPGs without the addition of a ton of plot and other elements which in reality would turn them into something completelly different than the original games which in turn brings up the question of why not make totally new games since it will need just as much work anyway (and possibly introduce inconsistencies with PDS)
C) If ppl play RPGs of the first two games then they won’t see what they were missing since these aren’t the games they missed.
D) I like the PD rail shooters and don’t want them gone for good regardless of how much I like PDS
RPGs are just about the antithesis of what i think gaming should be. i really like a couple of them, but i think it could be said that i like them despite being RPGs. they lack gameplay and more seem like an evolution of the interactive movie. and with the (essential) aspects that they lack, they don’t have anything exclusive to their genre to balance it out. developed (not necessarily good) storylines are common, but as PD and a number of other action games have shown, plots can exist outside the RPG format.
While I agree with Alex that it probably wouldn’t be worthwhile to turn PD1 and PDZ into RPGs - like he said, completely new games would seem like a more logical choice - a PDS remake doesn’t sound like a bad idea to me.
I’d never given it serious thought before, but when I was replaying PDS yesterday it struck me how good a modern remake could potentially be. The old character, enemy and location designs would look stunning with updated graphics, and the soundtrack doesn’t need improving, but a remake could also iron out whatever gameplay shortcomings the original had. Flight areas could retain their original feel but be recreated in a much less linear way, the town areas could play a more essential role in things, and the easiness of the whole game could be amended, for example.
Considering how few people have played PDS, a remake wouldn’t seem so hard to justify, either; the game has risen to fairly legendary status in gaming circles too, so a remake would have an awful lot of free hype. It’d also be cheaper to develop than a new RPG (to some extent), and it’d likely be more successful than a new rail-shooter in today’s games market. Providing that the new game was actually good in its own right, it’d hopefully make Sega a decent profit.
Well, reality isn’t quite so straightforward; if it was, Sega would probably have got around to doing this already. Still, it’s an appealing idea…
So, Megatherium, you are saying that the plot of PD or PDZ can compare to the plot of PDS or any other GOOD rpg as to not have need for games like that anymore?
To fit the ammount of plot games like that have into something like PDZ would really make it end up as an interactive movie where you’d play a single level and then watch an hour or two of FMVs rather than run around and explore places and talk to NPCs etc by yourself.
And the menu based input is not what makes an RPG, there’s lots of RPGames around that use realtime combat. Morrowind is a prime example (even tho I hate it) for PC RPGs and games like Tales of Destiny 1 & 2 or Legend of Mana for Console RPGs.
What makes an RPG is the mix of exploration, story, character advancement, character interaction and elements that you can’t just point your finger at since a lot of games do use some of the above things but still fit into another genre.
You can’t compare the advancement of the Dragon in PDZ with the stages a character of a good RPG goes through for example, a few simple upgrades are far from what RPGs offer in that aspect. And you can’t compare the cut scene where Orta talks to the wormriders with the town parts of Saga where you are still in control of your character guiding him and talking to people all by yourself. Maybe it’s not “gameplay” as you say but I still prefer DOING things than simply WATCHING things.
Perhaps the linearity ruins it a little but there are RPGs that are far less linear as well and are in fact the root of the genre and you can’t dismiss masterpieces like Baldur’s Gate as having no gameplay wehn they offer immense variety and depth. It’s combat might require “menu input” at parts such as selecting spells to use but if we would dismiss Baldur’s Gate cos of it’s menus then we might as well dismiss all the RTS games as well since they require menus to build structures and create units. How logical does that sound to you?
Most other genres take RPG elements as well to enhance themselves and add depth so that shows RPGs do offer things. We didn’t exactly jump from the first castlevania’s whip wielding Belmond to Symphony of the Night’s Alucard (with a host of different weapons and equipment to find and wield, spells to learn, skills to aquire, places to explore rather than just run through etc) out of nowhere for example…
Also, since there ARE RPGs you enjoy why talk as if it’s a useless genre? Since they HAVE offered you entertainment that other games haven’t, perhaps you should instead try and find more RPGs that are good and offer you entertainment rather than act as if the whole genre is useless.
I like shooters but I don’t play shooters like R-type cos I find them closer to puzzle games with how you have to go through the level in almost a perfect specific path of enemy destruction in order to manage and win. But since I do enjoy other shooters I won’t say the genre is useless because of all the R-Type esque stuff that are out there when I have seen that there are different things as well. Besides I also wouldn’t call a genre useless when it’s a personal preference of mine anyway.
When I said I don’t want the shooters gone I didn’t mean that I want the RPGs gone. I want both, as simple as that. They offer me different things and I don’t wanna give up on either as they both are part of the PD experience and both have their unique strengths. I do want the next game to be an RPG but I also would want to see a worthy successor to PDZ (which Orta wasn’t IMO) in the future.
PDZ took me through a magical journey in an alien world and showed me glimpses of wonderful things. PDS let me set foot on that world and explore it and meet it’s inhabitants and attach to the characters and see things in a totally different way. Perhaps it didn’t do it in the extend it could have happened (imagine an RPG as open and expansive as Baldur’s Gate set in the PDWorld for example) but it was still a lot more than I got the chance to do in PDZ and I can’t wait till I get the chance to do it again in the next PDRPG hopefully in an even larger scale than the original.
Anyway I’ll end it here, like I said you can’t just point your finger at a few elements and say “this is what makes an rpg” or “this offers what rpgs offer since it has this and that element even tho it’s not an rpg”, RPGs are a mix of a lot of different elements that when tied together well make one hell of an experience no other genre can recreate. If it recreates an experience like that it most likely is an RPG in itself. Perhaps that experience is not for you, that doesn’t render the genre obsolette nor its fans misguided or something as to play “interactive movies” and not realise it.
Edit: And yes, like Lance, I too would like a PDS remake but ,again, I’d prefer a new story over that (if it was a choice between the two) since in order to make the game “up to date” they would have to add and change a ton of new things (for example huge non linear places to explore instead of the “tunnel like” flight sections or the small-ish and emty open areas of the original) on top of the new great graphics which in reality would make it almost a new game apart from the story so why not make a new story as well anyway?
While I like RPGs what makes me uneasy about them is that frequently I feel just a passenger being carried away by the plot because my decisions can’t influence the path of the story (when I have decisions to make of course).
Games like Civ3 and Sim City are the exact opposite of that. You have absolute control all the time. When I played FF VII recently I loved it but I feel it was more of a interactive movie or book than a game. Maybe it’s because of it that I like PDS so much, it is a RPG with a great history and a gameplay where you have to use strategy (type of dragon, position, berserks) to fight enemies that makes for a more engaged gameplay like the shooters.
I never said FFVII is the prime example of an RPG or something… I think you are just playing the wrong games to get the definition of an “RPG” from. As one Geoffrey Duke is sure to comment, you should try PC RPGs like Baldur’s Gate 1 & 2 to see what the deal is about. Freedom, Depth, Strategy, Story in all their glory…
For the record, FFVII has far more challenging battles than PDS and does allow for a LOT of customization once you get the hang of the materia system. In fact it’s propably my favorite magic system ever. And that customization has a ton more impact in the characters’ ability than the different dragon forms of PDS as well.
As for games like SimCity and Civ3, perhaps you have total control but you have no story whatsoever and you keep playing if u get hooked in the style of the puzzle games of the old rather than the interesting things you get to see as you advance… I don’t want all games to go back to that, it fits in certain genres and perhaps makes a welcome change in other genres for a while but ultimately imo some games need a story
I played Planescape and Icewind Dale 2 in my PC and they are great examples of RPGs. Planescape is a true masterpiece (didn’t managed to play them to the end though, lack of time). It’s just that when someone talks about RPGs I automatically think of japanese console ones. I think it is some kind of conditioning.
I agree with you about FF7’s materia system. It is a great idea! The only minus is that the characters didn’t have any characteristics of their own. The only character with a strong physical attack was Red XIII, all the others have to resort to the magic attacks to do some serious damage. As someone in another forum said “In FF7 you grow materia not characters”. But overall it is a great game and a good system.
You hit the target with your last comments. My only complaints about games like Civ3 is that they didn’t have any story. I hope that games with total control, freedom and great plots aren’t that far in the horizon.
I can see what you all mean by saying it would be better just to make a new Panzer Dragoon rpg with a new story but the first two games PD and Zwie have very good potential to be retold with expanded story elements and character development. I mean think about how cool it would be if PD was remade into and rpg and you got to play as the Sky Ridder, see his back story, go on a grand adventure with Solowing all before ultimately getting killed and handing the rains over to Kyle. We could also get a grander look on how Kyle and Lundi thought about the world and what their true motivations were.
there are other action games that feature detailed and well written stories. i didn’t say all action games had them or could have them, but that feature is not exclusive to RPGs.
i have genre definitions that differ from most other people and i end up thinking of morrowind as an action/adventure game rather than an RPG. i feel that genres should group games that the player would feel are similar rather than games that feature similar facets. at one point anything with a stats system was called an RPG. i’ve played the tales of series and it was fine but by and large RPGs don’t focus on gameplay.
if the average RPG endeavored to be more like morrowind, i would not complain.
you can’t choose my witnesses! i wouldn’t have made that comparison at all. as far as doing versus watching, that’s wy whole gripe with the gameplay of most RPGs- you select some form of attack then watch the flashy light show and a randomized amount of damage is dealt. i like to play a more direct role in combat, i want to be the one that decides if my attack connects or my evasion succeeds.
not very, but thankfully that’s not my logic. the gameplay an RTS centers around commanding an army rather than commanding one character. i wouldn’t mind a more intuitive control scheme, but the gameplay is different so bringing up my issue with menus and trying to re-apply it doesn’t really get at anything.
are you claiming that RPGs invented multiple weapons?
i guess that’s my whole point. i don’t think i can appreciate the RPG genre so with the RPGs that i like, i don’t them for being good RPGs, i like them for being interesting games. it seems like everything east of bethesda is trying to be the next final fantasy and while RPG fans may find them amazing, i don’t
skies of arcadia interested me, but a lot of RPG fans say it’s very bad. panzer dragoon interested me, but it pushes the limits of being remotely similar to standard RPGs. phantasy star IV is probably the closest i get to standard RPG and all the FF fans that i’ve gottent to play it say it’s sucky
now let me say something about PS IV. i know the hardware couldn’t do this at the time, but since RPGs are relatively unchanged, i want to use PS IV as an example. that said, it is wasted potential. the constant in and out of different game modes made me feel detached from the characters. imagine a PS IV remake with something like PSO graphics. you are down at ground level in a town, running around in it, you leave through the main gates and there is not perspective change or gameplay difference, enemies emerge, no flashy battle intro, you are still there with your character and you are now in the heat of combat. that’s what i want out of an RPG if i like the world and story that they have created. i want to have my character be a projection of me INTO that world. menu based battles, game mode changes, etc all take me out of the experience.
[quote=“Al3xand3r”]When I said I don’t want the shooters gone I didn’t mean that I want the RPGs gone. I want both, as simple as that. They offer me different things and I don’t wanna give up on either as they both are part of the PD experience and both have their unique strengths. I do want the next game to be an RPG but I also would want to see a worthy successor to PDZ (which Orta wasn’t IMO) in the future.
what about a blending of the two? what if the gameplay of one was paired with the world, interaction, and story of the other? that’s all i ever wanted!
i know there are some forum posters that love RPGs and are probably sharpening some bladed instrument with every intention of using it on me. but everything i said was phrased in the form of personal opinion aside from my claim that RPGs lack gameplay. so i hope people weren’t too offended :([/quote]
Panzer Dragoon Saga was a work of art - granted, it had many faults (i.e too short, too easy, pointless battle earnings), but the mechanics behind it all was executed flawlessly. What you people have to remember is that games are just not about pushing buttons and having complete interactivity; videogames are simply just another storytelling medium. Of course people could argue that if people wanted storytelling, all they would have to do is pick up a book; the only problem with that is, people read books differently and do not envision what is going on the way the artist/writer originally intended. With videogames, on the other hand, you view the world that was envisioned by the people who created it.
Panzer Dragoon Saga told a story - and told it very well. To be quite honest, I would not be a fan of the Panzer Dragoon series if it weren’t for PDS; it set a whole new watermark in so many ways.
I enjoy shooters and the games of old just like everyone else - but games, ever since they made that shift from 2D to 3D simply are not fun anymore. And with that in mind, the only thing left is a good storyline…that will keep you wondering what will happen next, and hopefully it will be so good that it makes you forget about the gameplay, in general.
So, being the selfish person I am, I want both a PDS remake and a PDS sequel.
Eh most standard RPGs have more than one character as well. Perhaps not an army but for example most DnD RPGs have 8 member parties. And in fact the control scheme is VERY similar except you obviously need a way to select different skills and spells per unit. And, guess what, menus are great for the job, you can’t simply have a hotkey for every single action an RPG lets you do or control directly every single of the 8 characters as if it was an action game. It just wouldn’t work without stripping away all the strategy. AI teammates that required no input from you in an rpg like BG would just make the game more watch than play.
Anyway, if Baldur’s Gate is to be dismissed cos of the menus as having no gameplay then every RTS would be dismissed as well since they are so similar. You control the characters direction and who they attack in an identical manner and the only difference is that Baldur’s Gate’s “units” have different spells and skills you somehow need to select. Both games require strategy albet in different ways. And you really should try RPGs like Fallout and Baldur’s Gate since they are the true definition of the genre rather than japanese console RPGs.
Warcraft 3 tries to add some RPG elements as well so a lot of it’s characters have some kind of spell or special skill that you need to select for use from a menu as well
And perhaps other RPGs don’t allow control of that type but even simpler combat systems (for example the regular FF esque stuff) do require some sort of strategy and planning both before and during the battle. And hell even if it didn’t, the above games show there’s more to the RPG genre than Final Fantasy.
No, I’m not, don’t act as if you missed the point. It’s not just different weapons it’s different weapons and equipment (cloaks, tuniks, shields and what not) that affect the character’s statistics etc. Besides, it’s not just that single element I said, If you are trying to say that SOTN is NOT influenced from RPGs in any way and is simply a natural evolution of the platform action games of the old then uhhh… whatever!
SOA is actually a prime example of console RPGs since it’s old school and cliched in every way and basically a homage of console rpgs of the old. As for PDS being “remotely similar” to standard RPGs then erm, LOL!
And who tells you FF Fans are the ones who can say what is and what isn’t a good or representative of the genre RPG?
I’ve written two ideas so far in these forums to blend the genres in a next PD game but that didn’t mean I want “pure” RPGs gone, the battle system of Saga could be amazing in a future incarnation that takes it to the next level and actually adds challenging enemies as well.
Besides, to have the “pure” PDZ gameplay in an RPG would mean that you’d go through enemy infested levels in a totally linear fashion. That’s hardly good for an RPG. And don’t even try to say that it could work with a freeform flight system, the PD gameplay is so good and has so good game flow because it’s on rails, a free flight game could never come close to recreating that. Besides, battling PDZ style with little advancement for the span of a good RPG (ie long even tho I don’t mind hold a grudge against PDS being short I’d rather it was longer) would have combat bore you halfway through the game. You need more depth and strategy and character advancement to keep you going through a decently sized RPG. And if it was on rails for such a large part of the game then wouldn’t that make it feel like a movie rather than being able to freeflight and explore things yourself?
And let me say that the combat in Morrowind is far from an action game especially for characters that opt to use some kind of wizard character. And in fact stats decide if you will hit the target or not (Or do you forget how many “misses” you get even tho your sword is right on target when you first begin playing?)
Anyway it seems you just want every game to have action like combat. I’m sorry but I like my party based combat and I don’t find it to have “no gameplay”, I like developing all 8 of my DnD characters and leading them to combat with their finely honed skills and I also love the turn based combat of Shining Force that allows me to lead even more characters to victory using their skills and my strategy to the fullest. I also love innovative battle systems like PDS’.
Why should they be hack and slash games? And how is the depth they offer not considered “gameplay”?
Your biggest mistake is to base your definition of an RPG on final fantasy and what ff fans like it seems. The only games that deserve to claim they are the definition of an RPG are a) pen and paper RPGs and b) their PC Game “continuation” with games like Baldur’s Gate, Planescape Torment and perhaps even Fallout (Even tho it doesn’t have pen and paper RPG rules) Try playing through some of those and I’m certain that you’ll never feel you are just going through a movie or that they lack in gameplay. If you do, then RPGs just aren’t for you and that fact doesn’t mean they really don’t have gameplay, just that their gameplay isn’t for you.
Let me say that it’s going to be quite a paradox if you think that for those games though when you’ve enjoyed cliched, way too linear and dare I say games with combat systems that are much shallower and require much less player input and strategy and planning like PSIV and SoA.