Possible explanation for change of art direction in Orta

Not only does the boss of 4 look odd, the whole level is odd- this ship does not deserve to be in the same sentence as Grig Orig or Shellkouff or even Behemoth. It just plain doesn’t fit with anything in the panzer world. Not a single float engine on the thing…

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My earlier point was that the Sestren data network may just exist as a constant transmission between all of the Towers and ruins that it links to, without there being a “physical” network backbone as such. Although I would expect that any physical network circuits just exist within the different ruins and Towers themselves. There’s got to be something behind all those thick walls, after all, and a lot of the technology they house could be the physical storage of the Sestren network.

I pretty much agree, but I’m also pretty sure that (correct me if I’m wrong) Kadamose was simply reminding us of those theories. There’s admittedly no evicence to base them upon, so although theories like those are interesting I don’t think that there’s much likelihood of them being true. But yeah, great for fanfics though :slight_smile:

I agree with the sentiment entirely lagi, but I should probably point out that there is an entire army of float engines underneath that thing, keeping it afloat. (EDIT: You can see them clearly in the cut-scenes.)

I thought about this previously, and I came to the conclusion that it basically had to be an unfeasibly huge stone castle, which the Empire had simply grafted masses of Float Engines to in order to make it mobile. (I mean, that stonework can’t be “Ancient” in design, so the Empire must have built it… maybe their architectural equivalent to the Great Pyramid?)

Has anyone else ever thought about this?

The colors clearly state it being imperial imo, (reminds me a LOT of the Orta’s new imperial airship concept are Lagi has on his site with all the gold and the red they have) unless ofcourse they just painted over an ancient building but it’s not like them to do that :slight_smile:
And now with seeing these pics it looks like a Skies of Arcadia level too doesn’t it? Imagine exploring that thing inside out with Vyce’s crew :slight_smile:
Oh and pic 04GiganticFleet_07.jpg shows the float engines too btw. Hell if they werent there I’d say to myself that the engines are sitting inside that thing :stuck_out_tongue: just to make it fit in the panzer world when thinking about it heh.

My reply about the network was to Kadamose’s post and yes I agree with you (Lance) about what Sestren propably is.

About the Towers being organic: drones interfaced with the Towers just like they did with bio-monsters. That means they must be very similar. Azel confirmed the Tower of Uru could think, so that must mean it’s alive. How could the Towers be “slaves of Sestren” if they weren’t alive?

And about the Sestren system, I’m not sure if it’s just a very advanced data network. I can’t imagine wires running throughout the Towers, forming the entire network. That would mean the entire system could be destroyed. I prefer to think the Ancients evolved and became aware of the existence of another dimension, and used it to their advantage to control the world.

I think the art in orta is very unispired, the team had no clue what to do whatsoever. I guess without Kusonoki-san or Yokota-san they really had no clue.

“hey let’s make the dragon more medieval. dragons are green,in fairy tales, arn’t they? And let’s also make a sonic beach voleyball extreme team!” bleargh…

Thank goodness tehy had Kikuchi-san (designer of the forrest level in PDZ) who together with Abadd changed many things for the better…

D-Unit how about wireless connections :slight_smile: we use those even now heh :stuck_out_tongue:

Sestren was controlling the Tower and every bio-weapon in it.

Anyway, going back to the organic / inorganic thing for a second: lagi’s post just reminded me of Mel-Kava. Now honestly, what was Mel-Kava? Was it mechanical, or was it organic, or was it a lot of both? I think Mel-Kava is a perfect exaple of the “blurred line” between organic and artificial that I was talking about earlier.

Mel-Kava itself never seemed to be sentient, yet those internal passages within it really seemed organic to me: with their little twitching extreminites along the passage walls, and that blue goop splattered across the surface textures, and the organic stretching-retracting “doors” along the tunnels.

And yet, Mel-Kava was structured like an airship, with “reactors” and “exhaust ports”. Some parts of it, like the underside and the “deck”, looked very mechanical.

My point being that it seems to be very, very hard to classify any of the Ancients’ creations as “organic” or “mechanical”, because of this constant fusion and contrast. In my opinion, all of them seem to have at least some organic and mechanical components: even in what we’ve seen of the Towers, there are some familiar forms that appear to be “organic” in the same way that pure-types are.

All I can suggest is that, by saying that genetic engineering was the foundation of all ancient technologies, the Imperial scientists simply meant that genetic construction was somehow incorporated into all ancient technologies, to whatever extent: large or small. To me, that would make sense.

Now to be completely accurate, we’ve never actually seen a Drone interface with a pure-type, so it’s not quite so simple. (Unless you count Abadd and his mare, and unless I’m forgetting something else, in which case remind me of course.)

However, the “bed” that Azel lay down in when she interfaced with the Tower did indeed look organic: it was at least made out of the same substance as Azel, and she was definitely organic. It was also filled with fluid, which presumably acted as some kind of neural conductor so that Azel’s mind could interface directly with the Tower. I do get the impression that that particular component of the Tower, that “interface bed”, was organic.

So maybe that’s all that the Imperial statement ment: that genetic engineering always plays a role somewhere. (In this case a very important role, even if this was the only biological construction in the entire Tower.)

Remember that the substances that all of the Towers and ruins are made out of are aparently nigh-indestructible, which would make anything incorporated internally within them pretty safe indeed.

I accept that it could literally be a network of “astral passages”, but remember that all of the (more accurate) descriptions in PDO describe it as if it was a data network: “The System”, “The Data Circuit”, “The Network”, which contains “Programs”, “Central Data Units”, “Simulations”, etc, etc. This just leads me to believe that the Seekers made an ironic mistake (understandable of a non-advanced culture) when they tried to categorise Sestren. Remember also that they had never experienced it.

As far as I can tell, there isn’t really anything that Orta sees in the Sestren system that couldn’t be put down to a “virtual reality” interface tapping into a data network. Seeing as Orta was transformed into “data” so that she could enter the system, I’m tempted to believe in the unimaginative solution…

Azel and Atolm?

[quote=“Lance”]

Remember that the substances that all of the Towers and ruins are made out of are aparently nigh-indestructible, which would make anything incorporated internally within them pretty safe indeed.

I accept that it could literally be a network of “astral passages”, but remember that all of the (more accurate) descriptions in PDO describe it as if it was a data network: “The System”, “The Data Circuit”, “The Network”, which contains “Programs”, “Central Data Units”, “Simulations”, etc, etc. This just leads me to believe that the Seekers made an ironic mistake (understandable of a non-advanced culture) when they tried to categorise Sestren. Remember also that they had never experienced it.

As far as I can tell, there isn’t really anything that Orta sees in the Sestren system that couldn’t be put down to a “virtual reality” interface tapping into a data network. Seeing as Orta was transformed into “data” so that she could enter the system, I’m tempted to believe in the unimaginative solution…[/quote]

I agree on the data part, but Sestren seemed to be just as much organic as it was a data network. I think it could be something more advanced, a system situated in another reality, not just a “virtual” reality.

Well, I think that Sestren exists in a different dimension entirely…if you know anything about Field Theory or String Theory, there are supposedly 11 dimensions total, all of which overlap each other. I believe that Sestren exists in one of those higher dimensions.

Good point - and in that case it would seem that Drones do not interface with pure-types in exactly the same way that they do Towers, because Azel had to be “hooked up” to the Tower through that special interface-bed device. On the other hand, simply standing on Atolm’s / the Mare’s back seemed to be enough for Azel and Abadd to guide those creatures.

I personally thought that the “organic” part made it more likely to be something merely created by the Ancients, rather than something that existed in another dimension. After all, they were completely preoccupied with either actual organic things or artificial things with organic motifs.

Given that the programs in the Sestren system are meant to be alive in some way, and that the system itself literally looks organic, I’ve hypothesised that it might have been an actual organic data network. That is, something made up of organic tissue and electrical impulses, like an organic mind, but created and grown very specifically so as to fulfill the Ancients’ specific needs. The living “programs” and “AIs”, like the Central Data Unit Ofnir, the old Sestren AI and the Heresy Program, might then exist within that organic network as individual electrical impulses (or something similar to brainwave patterns.) EDIT: and that could be how Orta entered the system, too: by being transformed into an electrical impulse.

Weird as it sounds, I don’t think that it’s a bad theory, and it would explain the whole “living network” theme quite well.

(EDIT: … Although as I said before, we don’t have enough evidence to conclude anything about Sestren’s true nature either way: this is just a theory that’s occured to me.)

So does that mean there’s some gigantic brain hidden away somewhere?

even if you look at the concept art, none of it really compares to Azel or Zwei.

Oh yeah, actually I forgot. You barely saw them- they didn’t really feel like a part of the design but an add-on.

[quote]
And now with seeing these pics it looks like a Skies of Arcadia level too doesn’t it? Imagine exploring that thing inside out with Vyce’s crew :slight_smile: [/quote]

I totally agree. I loved Skies of Arcadia, and it wouldn’t be a bad level for Skies of Arcadia, it just wasn’t Panzer at all.

I really dont mind the artwork in general in Orta, I guess you can say it was something new that they wanted to add to the series. But of course some changes I did not care for as much, more so the changes on the airships, to me they reminded me the most of what Panzer was, really unique looking airships that stand out to the other airships that can be found in other games. They didn’t exactly look organic or mecahical at the same time, more so a interesting hybrid of both.
Although they did make a really brief apperance in Orta, just a few seconds worth sadly.
Exactly how many years did Orta take place after Saga? Surely during those years between those times there would have been much changes to any machines whatsoever?
The series has just taken a more futuristic look to me in a way, with a interesting rustic twist to the ships.

Although the one thing I was dissappointed with is the dragon’s design itself. The base wing was okay, the claws on the wings was a new twist but I didn’t think that change was that bad. It was bit more realistic looking, (more so when the dragon was running on the ground, those claws would have even been more useful. I simply could not imagine the dragon running around on only two legs and supporting all of that body weight and Orta at the same time.) It was the Heavy and the glide wing forms that got me upset. Sure they are fancy looking and maybe even cool looking, it just didn’t fit. I think they were just made to look pretty and lost the organic feel they it had in say Saga. I would prefer Panzer Wing to the heavy wing any day. It just made it more… well… unrealistic looking I think. That was another thing that I liked about the Panzer series is that they actually made some realistic looking dragons for a change. The wings were positioned right, no additional limbs because there was really no need for it, a good balanced tail that wanst too long or short and not too long of a neck that would other wise snap for supporting such a long horn on a small head. Although when I did first play the game, that horn did bother me, it seemed like it was a unneeded weight, but whenever the dragon became an agility class it would lose the horn so that threw away my doubts. =)

I always forget the airships were in there- probably bad communication between FMV and game team, or just they started the FMV before they had a clear idea of what they were doing… I guess they aren’t any excuses for them to be more in the game…

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The way we determine what is Panzerish and what isn’t is by using the Saturn Panzer Dragoon trilogy as a frame of reference. In the end, however, the creators are the ones who decide what is Panzerish and what isn’t. They’ve kept everything true to its roots IMO while adapting the artistry and aesthetics for modern hardware.

[quote=“Atolm”]Exactly how many years did Orta take place after Saga? Surely during those years between those times there would have been much changes to any machines whatsoever?
The series has just taken a more futuristic look to me in a way, with a interesting rustic twist to the ships.[/quote]

There’s a 37 year time gap between Panzer Dragoon Saga (set in A.F. 119) and Panzer Dragoon Orta (set in A.F. 156) which is more than enough time for the Empire to make huge strides in its understanding of ancient technology.

Shadow will disagree, but I thought the new ship designs perfectly illustrated the advancements the Empire has made in its pursuit of perfecting the deadliness of its aerial armoured fleet. I loved the Vermana carrier and assault hoverships in particular. Besides, we do still see a few of the old-school ships.

Ever wondered how the ships in the original Panzer Dragoon stayed afloat despite the fact no ropes were attached to the anti-gravity engines? Perhaps they were invisible ropes, or perhaps there’s some other more logical explanation I’ve somehow missed.

[quote=“lagi_webmaster”]I always forget the airships were in there- probably bad communication between FMV and game team, or just they started the FMV before they had a clear idea of what they were doing… I guess they aren’t any excuses for them to be more in the game…

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Those older ships are a sight for sore eyes.

Yeah, it keeps becoming ever clearer that those FMVs were made long before the finer details of PDO were finalised. I don’t know if anyone’s noticed, but in the FMV of the Lathum village, the Baldors are all Panzer Dragoon Saga-style Baldors: but all of the Baldors seen elsewhere in the game are a heavily redesigned version (without the huge spined fins on their backs).

I expect that the Battlecruisers seen in the opening sequence can be put down to the same thing: Smilebit hadn’t decided what the new airship designs would be at that point, so they just put in the most famous ship from the previous games.