I’ll catch up on this topic during the next few weeks, when I can grab some spare time. Some interesting points have been raised.
I’ll catch up on this topic during the next few weeks, when I can grab some spare time. Some interesting points have been raised.
Who’s happiness ? . Please don’t list me the likes of Africa, India Ect.
We weren’t born a rich country, but education, democracy and birth control transformed the nation. That is what wrong with the likes of Africa : Corrupt dictators and family have children left right and centre, while they can’t afford to feed one child, let alone six.
We could run down the very long list if you want, including what the IMF has done to these countries, how the west has enslaved them to perpetual debt, and how globalisation made perfectly viable insular markets for goods redundant (not competitive) on the global stage.
Or we could go back further in time to British Imperialism.
The fact of the matter is people consume way more than they need, and let even their own people starve, so that they can have more. Now I believe in a system where you can enjoy the fruits of your labor, but when it is profitable to stop others from having a chance at the same kind of life, then no, it’s not right at all.
At all.
[quote=“Geoffrey Duke”].
Or we could go back further in time to British Imperialism.
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lets go back in time and all us Brits staring blame the Vikings and Romans for all the poverty that still remains in the UK, Lets demand massive bail outs and aid from Italy . Ireland’s wreckless borrowing and bank collapse isn’t to blame for their economic mess, it’s in fact us British and lets bring up old stories of the Potatoes
Do we do that now ?.. I so very sick of the likes of Africa blaming the west for all their troubles, when we’ve long since banned the Slave trade (and its not like Africa doesn’t have it own domestic slave trade with Child soldiers Ect) long since given up British Imperialism, why is ok for the likes of Zimbabwe to behave no better and in fact that the British did decades ago ? now
The trouble is Africa is their leaders and their out of control birth population, and history tells and shows us , until you cut your birth control you not get rich as a nantion, the UK shows that better than most
Yes, lets look at these Africa leaders/dictators - Lovely fleet of Private jets, fleet of wife’s and mercedes benz cars, while their own people starve. Hello King Mswati !
Zimbabwe gone from a country that couldn’t just feed it’s self , but sell on food to the rest of Africa . That’s all gone now, not because of Great Britain, but because of a dictator.
They are only modelling themselves on the cut throat success of the west by becoming a part of problem (take take take take) and not the solution.
If the powers that be did not need us, they would squeeze every last drop of blood out of us if they could, as history has shown.
WE, the people who weren’t blessed with wealth inherited from raping the world, have counterbalanced that.
So yes, TA, I will blame the west for creating a demand for slave labor, and for stopping these countries from producing their way out in a way that is both empowering and competitive. I will blame the powers that be for arming these people as well which has allowed their governments to surpress their own people indefinitely. I will blame the west for funding and propping up dictators to secure the flow of oil.
Etc etc etc.
Greed is going to be the death of everyone.
I would not put it in terms of “blaming the West” though; conquest, subjugation and exploitation know no cultural bias, in the grand scheme of history. There have also been bastions of peace and harmony to be found in peoples from all over the world, but as a rule the impulse toward warfare and expansion will always have clear enough roots in the simple pressures of means, motive and opportunity.
Virtually every enduring culture has some story of brutal domination in their background. That is a given, but this is either a new age or it is not. In the here and now we have at least made a significant start on actualizing the ideals of human rights and dignity for all, but even there, we are not yet at a point where pacifist methods may accomplish everything. And there even seems to have been a brief window in which the US (and generally “the West”) was representing something close to a ‘right’ way to throw it’s weight around, then the corruption of power took over. And a crucial factor in that is that we’ve just been co-opted by the old-guard oligarchy in a new guise.
But TA has some salient points, as about birth control; as I may have mentioned before, a connection has been drawn between population stability and the empowerment of women. The assertion being that it’s the one and only consistent indicator in population groups that do show stability. And as a (somewhat gross) generality, that is very much a distinction seen between East and West as well. And even in European history, I believe more of a distinction of the northern / Scandinavian tribes, relative to many of the other cultures.
By various designs and accidents, the “middle class” phenomenon has become a defining characteristic of cultural prosperity in modern history. Not that it’s all ideals and honest effort involved of course, but the laws of cause and effect are always in play, and there are at least some objective ideological justifications for the prosperity of late enjoyed by “the West”. And there are many ideologies other cultures still cling to that are simply incompatible with that foundation for prosperity, so this is ultimately a competition, and the rules of the game are far too complex to ultimately be known. So things will get ugly at times, no matter the ideals.
But the other principle that cannot be avoided is that of honor, or perhaps integrity, as the former term is somewhat nebulous. If we define and declare principles and then routinely fail in our adherence to them, then we must inevitably fail to reap the possible benefits of those principles. Whatever they may be.
[quote=“Geoffrey Duke”]They are only modelling themselves on the cut throat success of the west by becoming a part of problem (take take take take) and not the solution.
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No if they’re were following out Model they’ll have election every 4 years, total and open press, women allowed education people having to work to support their kids and blaming their Government for the mess, rather than the evil British Empire or the West
So lets the bull, Africa problems are of their own making and no-one else .
What next lets blame the Germans and ask them for billions and billions in aid and countless handouts. It’s not Labour’s or the Tories Fault the country is skint and in a mess , it those evil Germans and lets blame them decades and decades to come
The sooner we stop giving Money to Africa the sooner those dictators will have to spend Africa money on its own people (rather than their cars), the sooner they’ll have less and less money to fight 20 year old civil wars , and just maybe , just maybe - The people will learn than if you can’t afford to feed one child, then you really should be having 6 plus and expecting others (namely the west ) to feed and pay for them
As a general rule I agree with you about the handouts TA, though I think there’s still room for the “teach a man to fish” principle, the other side of that being that you can’t actually force a man to fish either.
But we have meddled and are meddling as well, as often as not in ways that are anything but constructive, in either intent or outcome. In a sense ‘we’ have that prerogative though, or the power elite of the west do, by the very fact and nature of that power. But do they have the right according to our own proclaimed ideology? The answer still takes many forms according to when it’s being asked and about what circumstance, so basically, in aggregate we do not truly believe in an answer yet.
TA: I don’t exonerate them of personal responsibility. I am saying that you can’t prop up dictators who secure what we want at the expense of their own people, then claim ANY moral highground.
If Saudi Arabia went under, it would be the end of the western way of life as we know it.
If you do not believe that western gluttony has played a role in keeping these people down, then you’re blind. Sorry.
It’s a bit IMPOSSIBLE to rise up against tyranny when the tyrants have machine guns and tanks that the worldly powers have sold them when the buyers stand to gain so much from maintaining the status quo as well.
We have not even started on the monopolizing of GM foods yet. Haiti, for example, had its own rice market that could feed its own people until globalization forced them to compete on the global stage at which point it was far cheaper to not produce any of their own. Now look at them.
Greed knows no loyalty or compassion.
If it is beneficial to the powers that be for countries to not be encouraged to have an uninterrupted democratic process just so people can fill up their gas tank and buy food cheaper, it will happen. Usually anyone that can’t produce fails anyway so is forced to modernize. The west stifled that once inevitable and eventual growth. So now we have to literally suck them dry before they’ll truly collapse and be forced to evolve, or impose democracy on them (which many are against).
It is CORPORATE greed that exploits slave labor. And when places like China keep their workforce tightly under control, I will absolutely blame greed for keeping these people down.
Do you want that to actually change or not?
Also, TA, exporting production jobs to slave labor countries has completely screwed our own social mobility. Any system that legitimizes poverty in order to somehow inspire people to climb out of it needs to become a relic of the past already.
Ancient: If they didn’t believe that half their children would die of starvation or disease early in life, they’d have less rather than as many as they can as an insurance policy against death. But yes, the Vatican’s bullshit is certainly killing a lot of people with its anti-contraceptive stance. That is no church of Jesus.
Social mobility benefits everyone as the U.S. has shown. The elite of Athens despised fleets of ships being made before Xerxes invaded exactly because it gave people at the bottom an opportunity to climb.
I honestly do not understand why even the most arrogant of superiority complexes would be against it. It’s all about making others own less so someone can have more until there is no blood left to squeeze from this stone we call human beings.
[quote=“The Ancient”]As a general rule I agree with you about the handouts TA, though I think there’s still room for the “teach a man to fish” principle, the other side of that being that you can’t actually force a man to fish either.
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We should give food and medical aid to Africa and that’s it . Money is not the problem with Africa - Its had trillions and trillions in Aid and is no better off no that decades ago’s.
We have people in poverty in the UK, we have old age pensions (who offered their lives for this country) having a hard time paying the heating bills, hundred of cancers suffers on the post code lottery . Charity begins at home and its high time the UK stopped messing around in other people’s affairs and sorted out the problems in its own back yard
if Africa can afford to fight civil wars that go on for decades, afford Private jets and a fleet of cars (not even our own PM gets a private jet) Then they can look after them self’s . Look at India pleads povert yet can afford the develop the Bomb and fund it’s own Space program(something we can’t)
How about spending that money on its own people ?. And I so very sick of seeing Africa and India mothers and fathers asking for aid and food, while having 6 plus kids and not means or the room to Support 1 child (never mind 6)
We were poor in the Victoria age (when we had 6 plus kids per Household) and we didn’t have Africa or India to bail us out . Education and decent Government started to tackle those issues
I’m no fool mate . But I bet your PC has parts made In China ,some your consoles or games were made in China (like the Keyboard or Mouse) Don’t get all high and moral with me on this Duke … when you’re enjoying the western life style and propping up evil Governments like China
You don’t want a part in it, then give all that up and live in a hut up in the Mountains. Remember the next you’re playing the like of WOW who made the Keyboards, where the power for the servers is all coming from
You’re a in and a part of this mess -Just as much as anyway . Talk is so very very cheap . I know it looks like a Dig (and I guess it is) But I’m no-one fool and no Hypocrite.
I love the Western life style and will not give it up
The western way of life is far from perfect. All you have to do to see this is the homeless people at home.
Much of what is good is thanks to the excesses of evil, and good people counterweighting complete power hungry selfish pricks.
I’m not going to defend them. I will, however, defend the values that led to the creation of all this promise. And those values weren’t reckless Imperialism, which by its very nature, benefits the top most. You need to make a distinction between that and the real free world, because when soulless corporations decide our policies (even through bribery), we are not free.
[quote=“Geoffrey Duke”]The western way of life is far from perfect. All you have to do to see this is the homeless people at home.
Much of what is good is thanks to the excesses of evil, and good people counterweighting complete power hungry selfish pricks.
I’m not going to defend them. I will, however, defend the values that led to the creation of all this promise. And those values weren’t reckless Imperialism, which by its very nature, benefits the top most. You need to make a distinction between that and the real free world, because when soulless corporations decide our policies (even through bribery), we are not free.[/quote]
But like I say are you ready to give it all up to be Moral ? . We’re all SEGA fan’s here right ?. One look at the back of my SEGA joypads and Pal Mega Drive console and you see ‘MADE IN CHINA’ anyone that owns some sort of electrical equipment (TV’s Mobiles, PC ECT )is helping to support the Gold mining trade in Africa (since that where most of the Gold used in conductors comes from) so we’ve all been supporting Evil Governments and dictators with out really knowing it
Give it all up mate, by all means… No more TV, No More Mobile, No more PC’s, LCD’s and anything that’s made in China (Which is next to impossible now ) .
Talk is very easy and very cheap. Now has horrible as it sounds I’m not willing to give that up and happy to say that I enjoy the Western life style (that’s not to say I don’t feel for people , not as lucky as me) But I’m not going to up the Lifestyle , you might want too , but we’ll never see you post on here again , which even at a basic level is loss .
Well there you go TA, it seems there can be no middle ground in your outlook, and I can perceive that you would apply the same standards to yourself as to those “hypocrite” politicians. In even acknowledging the injustice or fallacy you would also become a hypocrite (like the rest of us) unless you were then willing to give it all up.
And that provides an illustration of one of the fundamental mechanics of denial. There is a corner in all our psyches that clings to a conceit of flawlessness, or righteousness. And anything that seems like it’s forcing us to confront a fault is an enemy of that conceit. But again, succumbing to the conceit completely defines a reality in which all power and privilege must be only entropic, a reality in which those with power cannot, should not, ever even attempt to change at all. As any impulse to improve is condemned as a betrayal of our past, and labeled hypocritical?
I can’t stop repeating myself it seems, but it’s all just the same thing; because reform cannot ever be perfect, that becomes your exploitation for effectively rationalizing the status quo as perfection by default.
Yes I am also an imperialist, and if I’m a hypocrite for not wanting to give up EVERYTHING that entails so be it. But I am NOT a hypocrite for choosing to question the justice, or even the greater (enlightened) self-interest of ANYTHING that currently entails.
TA: There has to be a better way.
If we stop believing that, then nothing will ever change.
On the subject of gold, did you know that in China you can buy gold fetish porn?
I didn’t either, until I mistakenly purchased a DVD featuring said porn.
Who’d have thought it!
I’m not sure about this ‘evil government’ stuff regarding ipods in China,
China is having their industrial revolution now, and it is not any worse than the way the UK was 100 years ago… Infact if anything it is a lot better.
Anyway, do not belittle the factories in china’s work by making it sound evil, if I was a factory worker I would be downright insulted by some of the shit I read on the internet.
Sure they don’t get paid much, but the cost of living in China is also comparativley cheap.
You don’t have to believe all the HORROR stories aunty fear tells you about working in China on the news, like minimum wages in Hong Kong being 3 pennies per hour or something - shit I have never seen anyone earn that little in Hong Kong, mentioning it to anyone I know ellicits little more than a ‘lolque?’ expression.
If anything you should feel bad about eating RICE.
People who farm Rice get paid and treated like absolute shite, never mind electronics.
Yet Rice is the staple diet of south america and asia, and the people who get paid next to nothing for their effort RELY on you buying that rice so they can get their horror-story wage which they really need.
It is a dog-eat dog world - we have a saying “every grain of rice is a bead of sweat” - they work hard and break their backs for a broke-ass wage and poor living conditions. Don’t dishonour it by wasting their effort.
Let’s look at the west - the peak of cilivisation in that case. There are tons of people here robbed of their potential through no fault of their own.
I cannot accept people being trapped in cycles of poverty and few opportunities as the norm, anywhere in the world.
Anywhere.
I was actually listening to Obama the other day when he said that we should help the homeless not just because it is right but because it benefits everyone. That struck me as incredibly disheartening because of how he had to make the idea sound profitable to people before they’d accept it, because that’s how much people are in the dark.
I really wonder why the end of civilisation would come as such a surprise to people.
I’m not saying that you should accept it, I’m saying that the ‘give it up and don’t buy from these countries’ attitude would actually make it all worse.
They’d become even poorer…
People who farm rice don’t get paid much, but if you stop buying it they wont get paid at all.
That’s why a father would rinse your mouth with a shotgun if you drop a grain of rice, it is the waste of very much work.
I’m not sure China is the best example to use though, the quality of life in China is not really that bad for the most part… as a rule of thumb, the paddy fields and bad factories are the exceptions.
You might look on people who farm or work in manufacture as being ‘robbed of their potential’ - but these people are essential and I encourage you not to insult them by seeing them as failures…
It’s all relative though, and the larger problem is the arbitrariness of globalized economics. That it is “cheaper” to produce something made of sand, petroleum and some other trace elements half way around the planet, then ship it back - that most polluting industry - is a farce.
And whether it’s considered “slave labor” or not, it is certainly not anything that could be considered a “fair market”. And the exploitation cuts both ways, the corporate greed exploits all of us; in less than half a century, my own country has gone from the most productive nation on the planet, to a nation that produces nothing, other than subsidized corn.
(Of course I’m being dramatic there, and the US is also still a hub for ideas and technological innovation, though not for much longer the way things are going)
It’s a stage of development that all countries endure as they develop.
America recently requested that China increase the value of the Yuan to stop america importing Chinese goods so quickly and cheeply.
Do you know how that went down in China?
Everyone was infuriated.
Factories laughed and said that in order to continue to produce cheap products for export they would just work twice as hard to keep the costs of the goods low.
You read all this stuff in the media about ipod factory suicides, but what you don’t read in the media is more important.
Several of the suicides were not attributed to at all by the working conditions of the factory, but instead personal reasons of the employees…
I get the impression from some previous posts that ‘western gluttony’ is the cause of China strengthening it’s own industries.
But you couldn’t be more wrong… the drive for wealth is a more prominant part of Chinese culture than it is Western, at least from experience.
That is the why of why you can purchase gold-fetish porn in China.
Wealth is so strongly woven into chinese culture that it is even a feature in sexual nich? erotic movies…
Scottish settlers in America may have been attributed with the invention of capitalist ideals, but I think it is crude to draw lines on the sand and accuse one side of being greedy and the cause of the world’s problems.
And for myself it’s not even about those lines really, as both “sides” are in basically the same boat right now. That wealth is only being enjoyed by a minority, in the case of the East it is perhaps a growing minority, but in the case of the West it is in fact a consolidating minority.
But again it’s all relative, the trappings of prosperity are still relatively great, but it’s more of an illusion than ever.