Game's Top 100 Games of All Time

I don’t think Halo should be trampled for that reason, after all, any additional theme for FPS is good… Before Halo it was just WW2 and to a lesser extent modern warfare, now we have space marines on top of these still going strong themes. Too bad Dark Messiah wasn’t that good or we’d also have fantasy first person (non) shooters, but maybe that will also happen any day now… I want me some first person melee!

As for WoW, the end game is pretty hardcore, you certainly need just time to get the gear but you also need to play damn well for the end instances and raids. Some moron who bought his character at full level with the best gear for his class will certainly not be able to complete these and just end up hindering his group. Unless that changed with the current dungeons, but that’s how it was pre-expansion (I haven’t played much lvl 70 end game, just a few heroic dungeons and 10 man raids before I quit).

I still maintain Eve is more important because it offered something relatively new whereas as grand as WoW is, it really is just a polished-thanks-to-budget game we’ve seen before. Eve’s been innovating in more or less every aspect, including how they don’t charge for expansions and instead just offer them to keep interest in the main game, with no additional cost to the fans. And they really are expansions, not just small content updates dubbed free expansions to make fans happier. And some of the future stuff they’ve showcased, damn, I just can’t wait.

It’s also a much more community based game early on and not just as a means to pass the toughest dungeons and get the gear you need as in WoW. Your corporation is your life there, and as in some sort of cyber punk virtual reality you end up with extremely complex relationships, even complete alternate spy personalities that infiltrate a corp for many months as a regular member before being able to gather enough information and influence to recruit members or even deliver a crippling blow. Fascinating stuff to me, and it wasn’t some built-in GUI feature, it just happened thanks to the way the game works…

And while not as popular as WOW, it does have its own influence and there are several space MMORPGs under development now, though I doubt any will reach Eve, and if some do offer something significant, Eve will probably offer twice that in a future free expansion. And that kind of influence is good, not like WoW’s where every other MMORPG is just a copycat… I just got Age of Conan after all the rave reviews (and some online pals getting it) and it’s really just a shoddy WoW + Guild Wars clone. Maybe in a couple years it’ll be worthy but for now it’s neither different enough from WoW nor solid enough to keep playing and I weep for my 50 euros.

I know there’s a lot of genuine challenge and difficulty in WoW, I had to retry many a mission I admit. But for me that’s a game breaking dichotomy, that the only clear road to the most hard-core rewards is yet entirely paved with the very worst elements of the experience. There’s almost like a plural catch-22 in place… there’s not much reward to be found for a casual attitude when most exploration is impossible without getting serious and structured about it. The professions are no reward at all, except as the means to get the serious gear faster. Being totally hard-core means you have to then get sidetracked by all that other crap as a routine, since again you need to get hold of that serious gear on a regular basis to survive, or more importantly to even get on teams… it’s such a tightly engineered morass. Other than the type of people for whom it’s a purely social scene, it really catered to only one rhythm and attitude of play. Though the PvP side seemed to add some options I guess.

I actually adored Guild Wars for a while, though my issues with it are many and very distinct. To say the game traumatized me is almost appropriate… I essentially developed a persecution complex within that realm, it was uncanny how many times my (many and varied) builds got screwed over within days of defining and playing them. And there was a truly reprehensible lack of responsibility in the evident attitude about game changes, considering the frequency of skill adjustments, and all the work that entailed, it seemed they yet couldn’t be bothered to reflect those changes in the wording. And the number of times I saw a single skill get dicked around with repeatedly, while the guts of certain other more favored builds that were at least as exploitable and obnoxious, languished for months unmolested; made it clear just how arbitrary their sense of ‘balance’ was on the administrative level.

Granted, the campaign / questing of Guild Wars is really really weak, mostly uninspired and extremely… flat. Even so, the system is by far the most engaging for any RPG ever, to me. Even if they did ruthlessly mine Magic the Gathering for 90% of the inspiration, they pulled it off just brilliantly. On the surface it might seem very limited and almost simplistic, but there’s far more genuine depth than anything else I’ve seen. Which actually contributes, in a round about way, to another of the biggest issues I had with the experience… most of the people playing are still locked into their cookie-cutter leets vs noobs bullshit mental prison.

My defining story about GW, as it represented to me… the first character I made, and the only one I played seriously for a long time, was a Monk with originally a Warrior secondary. The starting choice was simply that stylistically I liked the Monk, and I wanted it to be a fighting Monk, which unfortunately they don’t have any innate combat. (in game terms the Monk is really just a generic cleric class) Having made the choice, I was determined to justify the primary class and figure out how to make the most of the one exclusive attribute for Monks, which is called Divine Favor. Right from the start it zeroed me in on a certain way to play, that I could tell was extremely effective, and I played for a few days almost entirely solo, and I mean without any mercenaries either.

At about the same time I first tried jumping into the arena for some PvP, I had this quest that I knew the names of skill rewards for, and was quite sure the Paralysis one would be useful, so I finished it up before going back in the arena. But it also gave the first skill you can get that’s directly powered by the Divine Favor attribute, called Divine Boon, and as soon as I saw it I was ecstatic, it fit perfectly with how I’d already been playing. In practice it did not disappoint either, that skill along with one other basically never left my bar thereafter. OK, probably more info than needed… but between arena games and starting to play in groups more I transitioned into more support play, and became really good at it. At least I can say I got many compliments and honestly never ran across anyone else that played like my build or could pull off saves the way I did.

Now, here’s the meat of my tale… occasionally I’d have convos with people who hadn’t really seen the character in action, and most everyone seemed to have their same opinion about what made a good monk, and once I was even called a noob for using Divine Boon! The game majorly pissed me off at one point, after a couple months, pulling some horrible crap that I couldn’t really explain to anyone who doesn’t know how it works… and I quit playing. But the payoff of this (I’m sure not at all rivetting) story comes after I did pick it up again some months later, when I became aware of the “Boon/Prot” build archetype, which was well established as the most viable PvP support Monk, and was precisely what I’d been playing all along.

And I could give a few other examples of the same kind of story repeating: figuring out a build, usually finding the right skills before I even try it out, being rejected as a noob a number of times after telling people ‘what’ I am, and then some weeks later seeing someone else proudly advertising their role for a team… as that build. Guild Wars manages to underscore just how stupid and sheepish 99% of the people who play these games are, in a way no other game really could. Completely locked into a pattern of judging everyone else by what they play, rather than how they play.

And that’s why I’m permanently leery of investing my time or money in the genre, though there are many other games I have at least some interest in.

I do see the problems you see, and I share those sentiments when it comes to gaming as a whole. It’s just that from the beginning, WoW wasn’t intended to be the soap opera FF7 was if you catch my meaning. It deserves more recognition than FF7. Way more.

The end game was where most of the real fun is. By hardcore I mean some of the end game dungeons were so unforgiving that if 1 person out of 40 raiders made a mistake it could wipe the raid. This was the best and worst part of the game. You know that most WoW players never even entered the 40 man dungeons? And yet Blizz kept making them for years because they tried to build the game around the wants and needs of players who simply had more time to spend in game. Only now is that finally changing. And it’s not necessarily for the worse either.

I take it you raided Karazhan Alex? You know that despite SSC and TK requiring 15 more people, they weren’t really as involving apart from the last bosses which required military organisation to beat. Making that compatible with real life without sacrificing the core gameplay is what Blizz are aiming to do now.

Yes, I am sure other games do things better and have better ideas, but it amounts to nothing if they don’t sell. WoW has gotten the balance right.

As for others copying WoW, that’s to be expected. Most “gamers” don’t want innovation remember. I hate how this business operates too, but you can only blame the market for the demand they create which the publishers feed. Real gamers are in the minority. Thankfully though, Blizz has quite a big hardcore following as well. WoW was too hardcore for its own good in the beginning. Now the game will revolve around smaller communities rather than dozens of players only united by greed.

I’d like to see more games that literally force you to think. Guess what though? No one else does.

As a rule, I have no doubt about that whatsoever, as Guild Wars proved it to me. But I wouldn’t even put it quite like that, since there’s no reason (or even any feasible way) to actually force people to think. But neither can I forgive games that encourage people to not think, either. And of course it’s entirely subjective… I have said as much previously I believe, but I will reiterate that my feelings about WoW are not from lack of appreciation or excitement, much the opposite; disappointment can only be this personal after one is has been so personally invested first.

There were some outside factors contributing to my mindset as well, at the time I quit I knew I would have very little recreation time for some period, but it was still a spontaneous decision to pack it in. And I got plenty of stories from the friends who were still playing, heard about failed and successful 40 man attempts and such. And I stated wrongly about the hard-core’ness issue there, your own point is most likely true Geoffrey, that the game was too hard-core for it’s own good. It’s just that has nothing to do with my personal criticism, I’m very hard-core after my own fashion, some of the most consistent fun I have in these types of games is from trying to do things other people say can’t, or maybe just shouldn’t be done… heh.

But all this started with the correlation between FF7 and WoW, and their relative merits pertaining to this list. But even aside from the irrelevance of the list itself, there’s very little in the way of profitable argument for your lament to be found. Why aren’t Tetris or Myst or even Space Invaders dominating? Those have all also affected way more people than FF7 could ever hope to claim. But their legacies are about as secure as can be regardless, and nothing else can take away from them. The same goes for WoW, the genre itself still isn’t entirely within the core gaming pantheon, but it’s not like it’s influence and prestige are, or will ever, be underestimated in the larger, more objective judgements of history.

WoW was the final grain of sand in an otherwise toppling tower of a relationship for me. …but, I don’t want to bore any of you with details of my personal life.

I could go off on a huge diatribe about that game, but I’ll leave it to Heretic, who seems to type with the capacity of my mental vernacular - which I can never express in spoken word - at times. In short, I think that WoW is vastly overrated and that to be worth a shit at all in that game, you need to have no personal life and/or be unemployed. Just ask my ex. It’s not a particularly good base for serious RPers. I play on an RP server and I had one good story run with a person I got to know and a few of my friends. Otherwise, it’s full of annoying, childish power-gamers who can all lick my boots. I like the fact that I have a two year old character that is only level 64. It proves I have a life outside of Azeroth, and I’ve got the tan to prove it.

“Top 100” - Do not want.

The WOW bug never bit me, and no matter how I tried I just could never get into WOW, I even bought The Burning Crusade to rekindle some form of interest but to no avail.

It seems I am one in twenty of the global population who have failed to bite the big juicy-instance-addicted worm, maybe other people here have this immunity to MMORPG gaming?

As for the Top 100 games of all time, they were probably figured out by a panel of experts as such. The point is these lists have very little to do with the way YOU feel about games. Ever watched a music chart countdown you could agree on? No, me neither.

You all take care,
Buh Byes!

World of Warcraft didn’t do anything for me either. I bought it at launch, played my free month, and unsubscribed. I’ve been MMORPG-free for months now, and have been focusing on co-op games as they become available. I’m waiting for Square Enix and Bioware to unveil and ship their own respective MMORPGs in the hopes that they’ll bring something a little different to the table. Until then, I’ll keep playing games like Lego Star Wars, and certainly Fable 2 when it ships.

As far as lists go, I’ve reached a point where I believe I can no longer produce a list measured numerically that could effectively convey my feelings on games I like.

The idea of “Top” somethings has always irritated me too.

I believe once EDGE wrote something along the lines of how they did not agree with “Top 100” lists, as if an entire year’s worth of gaming could be summed into a list of 100.

They then proceeded to write and publish a book called Top 100 Videogames.

Resident Evil 4 made it at number 2, and Ocarina of Time was number 1…

The irony.

I don’t really like MMORPGs, but I have always been tempted to try Eve Online and Guild Wars. I may just get around to that some time in the next few months (as I’ll probably have more space, and as such will be able to get a full-on PC instead of just having a lappy).

Those MMORPG anonymous meetings really help huh? =P

Well a lot of people get put off Guild Wars because everything outside the main cities is an instance. So bascially, you only ever randomly run into people inside cities. As soon as you step foot outside, you won’t see another living soul unless you’re in a party with people.

Eve I don’t know much about, but I know someone who’s addicted to it so can’t be all bad =P

Someones described MMORPGs to me as “a selective taste”. You either into them or you’re not. Oh and people will forever argue over which is better.

“Regular” videogames vs MMO’s huh… isn’t that like the perfect definition of a non-argument? O_o

Right alongside Books vs Cinema or City vs Country living.

But yeah, there’s an argument to be made for Guild Wars stretching the definition of an MMO… and it’s only truly brilliant for the competitive experience, 80% of my fondness for it is based on arena play. There’s no reason the campaign couldn’t have been just as compelling, but it starts with mostly lackluster material and then spreads it out very thin.