EA must be destroyed

“…real-time light/weight/sound physics that aren’t even integral parts of gameplay…”

Actually, you did say they weren’t integral =\

But nevertheless, in the instance of Thief: Deadly Shadows, is each individual shadow necessary for the gameplay? No. But, it blurs the line between “interactive objects” and “the rest of the environment.” Do you remember the days when in adventure games, you knew what items were interactive because they were drawn a little different? Same thing here. The developers were trying to create an environment that was alive and consistent. Why would some objects cast shadows, and not others? The more you blur the line, the more immersive the world becomes. As I mentioned to Gehn in a separate thread, “consistency” is what you need to strive for in a game.

And when you have a ton of stuff to render, it’s actually easier to cast dynamic shadows, rather than draw everything in yourself. The act of making everything have shadows isn’t what’s causing costs to go up (although the initial R&D does), it’s the fact that now that games are expected to have a ton of content. If you were to go in and try to draw in the shadows all by hand, that’d be insane. So, it costs extra money during R&D to develop vertex shaders (unless you license the engine), but it allows developers to devote time and efforts elsewhere during the actual building of the game.

And did you ever think that bump mapping was what actually allowed them to build the game the way they did? It wasn’t that there was an incredibly low poly count… they just had to divide the polys up between a whole lot of objects and models. Bump mapping allowed them to accomplish this without sacrificing too much quality. Normal mapping allows this to an even greater degree.

You do realize that, for example, the wheels on the Warthog in the original Halo were actually octagonal, or something crazy like that? Bump mapping is what allowed them to look like they were actual wheels.

These are far from graphical gimmicks, as they build on the believability/consistency of the game world. And unless you do something as a developer to at least stay above the minimum acceptable technology line, you become irrelevant. People take one look at Doom 3 or Half-Life 2 and say, “Man, your game looks like crap compared to these.” And that’s because it does.

As far as Halo goes, the developers made the game with giving the player freedom in mind. As it goes, the player could be standing in any place within the level at any given time. To give it the most realistic sound possible, they created the system you see now. Is it the most efficient? Probably not. But is it the most effective? Most likely. With an interactive medium, there will always be wasted efforts because the player will never do exactly what you want 100% of the time. Such is the nature of the beast. Actually, this is one of the very reasons why content generation for games is becoming more and more of a monstrous beast. People expect RPGs to play like Morrowind/KOTOR/Fable now. Technological accomplishments of these games aside, the simple act of generating that much content, simply because these games don’t play on a linear path like FF does (or to a lesser extent) makes a lot of what goes into these games superfluous to a lot of gamers, yet it’s gamers themselves that clamor for more games exactly like that.

There are plenty of games out there that feature new-fangled technology or whatever that also have great gameplay. But, the companies that are going to be able to afford to do all this are going to become fewer and fewer until something drastic changes in the way games are made/published.

As long as EA don’t buy out Ninty, Sega or Capcom, I’m fine.

[quote=“Abadd”]"…real-time light/weight/sound physics that aren’t even integral parts of gameplay…"

Actually, you did say they weren’t integral =[/quote]

TO GAMEPLAY! :anjou_angry:

i fully understand the reasoning of consistency but i still think they failed at it and had they repurposed the engine they may have actually gotten it to look good. the kind of non-dynamic shadows i was talking about were the kind used in virtual on, they stayed with the character/object and looked right in most situations but it was virtual smoke and mirrors. they overplayed the shadows and i think a touch of subtlety would have done a great deal in theif’s favor.

[quote=“Abadd”]
And did you ever think that bump mapping was what actually allowed them to build the game the way they did? It wasn’t that there was an incredibly low poly count… they just had to divide the polys up between a whole lot of objects and models. Bump mapping allowed them to accomplish this without sacrificing too much quality. Normal mapping allows this to an even greater degree.[/quote]

lets break it down this way: thief did not have enormous areas, it did not have a lot of on screen action at any time, and it wasn’t exactly top of the line graphics when it came out. it could have looked (and ran) A LOT better than it did. and i suspect that the reason it did not was because the devs spent an unnecessary amount of time dicking around with superfluous programming related to anything BUT the gameplay. splintercell 1 came out like 2 years earlier, did just about everything thief 3 did, and looked better in all respects?

quite right. and i, for one, don’t like this. it means that any dorks that spend enough time learning this new code can make the next game sensation while simultaneously screwing any devs that chose to spend more time on the fun of the game than the prettiness out of sales. case in point chronicles of riddick; honestly, that game blew severely.

i’m all for the “wasted efforts” in morrowind, but this is a linear first person shooter- not morrowind. you just have to wonder: if they hadn’t spent all that time on these unnecessary details, maybe they could have given halo 2 an actual ending? :anjou_wow:

or tech-crazy devs just take a chill pill and slow it down. game tech was developing steadily and was actually benefitting the games at one time. now it just seems like a balancing act “how much crap can we squeeze in without making the game unplayable?”

It’s integral to gameplay in a lot of instances, but not all, I’ll give you that. Take Half-Life 2, for instance. The gameplay is built around the physics engine. Splinter Cell’s use of shadows/lighting is essential to gameplay. Every time one of these games ups the ante, everyone has to follow suit, or become irrelevant.

Virtual On can get away with static shadows, because of many reasons. One, it’s a fast-paced fighting game where the player is primarily focused on his enemy, who is also moving extremely fast. That’s somewhere you can “cut corners.” With Thief, it’s a slow and meticulous game that encourages players to examine the environments in great detail to find loot. Every inconsistency that pops up takes one step further in breaking the game world.

I highly doubt that the reason why Thief looked the way it did was because they spent so much time just doing shadows. Frankly, I just think their programmers or artists perhaps weren’t all that good. The areas were fairly large for what they were, and given that the player could go anywhere in each environment, the level of detail that was necessary, and all the AI that it had to handle, it’s relatively impressive.

Actually, Chronicles of Riddick is quite an impressive game, but visually and, well, just about everything else. The lack of a “game-y” indicator for stealth? Brilliant. It was all done with a non-intrusive color palette shift when hidden. While I haven’t played too much myself, everything I’ve seen so far of the game has been excellent… and close friends of mine who are quite versed in all things media-related (meaning movies, comics, games, books, etc.) all say the same thing… What made you think it sucked?

While the overall structure of Halo may be linear, the way you play is far from it. The AI reactions alone in Halo make each playthrough a unique experience, as enemies rarely react the exact same way to player actions. So, for instance, one player may find a way to utilize a turret in a section to clear out enemies, or another player may bring in a Warthog. Another player may take things on foot. Each method requires extra assets and stuff that the other methods wouldn’t necessarily see or take advantage of.

As for the thing about taking it slow, all it takes is one developer. Just one to “push the envelope,” and the rest of the industry will not be able to sit on their collective hands, while this other developer wows the crowds with new technology and whatnot. Hardcore gamers and casual gamers alike are all guilty of this. Who wasn’t impressed when they first saw FF7’s summon spells? MGS2’s graphics and facial animations? Halo’s bump mapping and seamless level loading? Jak & Daxter’s draw distance? Splinter Cell’s realtime shadows? The list goes on and on.

You know, as an aside, you’ve got to admire people like Chris “Rollercoaster Tycoon” Sawyer who manage to code and create a game almost entirely by themselves save for a few trivial things like the music. Must keep the R&D costs down methinks. >.>

Yeah… And you can pretty much only get away with those types of games on the PC, where there is a wide enough variety of people using them that you can get away with non-standard games and have them sell. The biggest problem is that with PC, there’s a lot more luck involved than anything =\

Must… control… fist… of… death…

Juuuuuuuuuuuust joking.

I said people, not me :anjou_happy:

Haha.

Ok, I’m done spamming. You may now return to your regularly scheduled intelligent discussion.

Also true. >.> No need to buy those accurseth cursed development kits for the PC. But I also agree that a fair amount of luck is needed, on any system for that matter though, for the same matter the once simplistic Worms might’ve been a big flop on all systems, but even despite it’s 5 pixel characters it became a smash hit on every system it graced.

Ah, in Europe only, though. US tastes and European tastes overlap quite a bit, but there’s still room for differences. Worms, being a prime example of that.

On console, though, it’s far easier to predict which games will be hits and which won’t be. Occasionally, you can be surprised (Disgaea, Katamari Damacy, etc. but even in those cases, you know they won’t be million-sellers), but there is always a pattern.

With PC, it’s much less predictable. It’s a much different medium, simply due to the interface, the user demographic, and how you spend your time interacting with the machine. Consoles, by nature, are more of a pure entertainment machine. You expect them to be a lot less technical, and since you’re sitting in your bedroom/livingroom/whatever in front of your TV, users expect it to be much more mainstream. With PC, you’re often huddled in a corner, face plastered to the screen. The psychological differences are pretty interesting, really :slight_smile:

So it seems ^.^

OMGWTF DILBERT!!!

i know i’ll be excommunicated for saying it but the more i see of half-life 2, the more i think of it as a tech demo. i’d say splintercell actually did up the ante, but i do not think thief did.

i’m fine with games upping the ante appropriately, that’s called progress. but i think some games have clearly suffered due to an attempt to push things too far.

alright, but again, which is more important playability or consistency? and it is not an either/or situation. there weren’t that many cats in the game, no one i know actually studied the cats, a reasonable facimile of a cat shadow would have done just fine, and they didn’t even need to put any damn cats in the game in the first place.

now, i liked thief overall, we’re just discussing an issue where i think thief is an example of how to do it wrong. i think the game would have been really impressive if it was done some years further down the line when it actually could have been done well. of course you could say that without games that take that next step, it still wouldn’t have been done well even several years later. but i’m not saying their should not be innovation, i’m saying innovation should be executed with care.

brilliant? :anjou_sigh:
they weren’t the first ones to do something like that, so i do not see what is so brilliant about it. it was actually quite cumbersome in certain areas. the graphics were high-poly but texturing issues and environment layouts will keep me from caring. i’ll admit that vin diesel did look a great deal like vin diesel - for better or worse…

but my complaints (almost always) are from gameplay ailments. frankly, the game was boring, even the action segments. everything felt way too set up, there were some AI tricks that could be continually abused to make it easier, it was a diet first person shooter.

i think you exxagerate how much effort it takes to grant that kind of freedom. i mean they decide when you get a vehicle, they decide when you can have a turret, they decide which weapons you get. in addition, using a warthog in an area that they did not specifically design for you to use a warthog rarely works out in your favor. where’s the freedom now?

actually, i wasn’t impressed by any of the things you listed but i get your point. i realize there is no easy way to tell developers to make better games instead of making prettier games but i still think it is this obsession with all things non-gameplay related that is the major source of the problem rather than the console generation changes.

I don’t think Thief III is a valid example of your points since, imo, the game simply wasn’t developed properly.
They had the Unreal Engine which comes complete with Karma physics, but they wanted to hack in the Havok2 engine and make a mess of how it works. They wanted dynamic shadows, but they ended up making them way too resource heavy unlike Splinter Cell, they wanted normal mapping but a lot of the textures and areas were bad regardless of what new tech they had and the levels were too small with high loading times, etc etc. It’s just a badly created game, especially as far as technology goes, only a slight improvement over the awful Deus Ex: Invisible War. The controls were bad too, you felt like an old man instead of an agile thief. Just bad use of technology, Splinter Cell has a lot of the same features and doesn’t have other features but as an engine, it’s far more robust and less of a resource hog (but still a resource hog, just not as much as Thief III). So, simply put, Ion Storm failed, that means nothing about technology advancement in general. Hell, even Doom 3 has better performance…

As for Half Life 2 being a tech demo, I have no idea why you’d call it that. Despite what you may feel it lacks, I don’t think there has been a more fun single player FPS in the last few years. The storytelling is excellent as well and the controls are spot on and everything in the game world is consistent, from the way the physics work to how every single thing looks. And it’s the first FPS to advance something more than the visual aspects with the implementation of the physics engine which is far from a gimmick. And even if it was a gimmick, it only works to enhance the experience by making the world even more believable. By being actually able to use the physics in the ways you do tho, it just brings it to the next level as the first game of a new generation of titles imo. You could say a lot of things that could have been improved but that doesn’t make it a tech demo and it still is ahead of everything else of its time.

it’s funny, you disagree with me but the points you listed after that were exactly what i was talking about. it was “just a bad use of technology”.

i think you take my opinions too personally. don’t get me wrong, it was impressive but it was also overly-scripted and a lot of what they did in the game was solely to show you what they could do with the engine. it had a lot going for it as an FPS but sometimes i think that advertising the capabilities of their engine was an ulterior motive.

I don’t see how I take it personally simply because I disagree with you.

As for the bad use of technology, that’s not what I’m saying. I said it’s bad development of technology that other companies have done better, thus the flawed Thief III doesn’t mean the world wasn’t ready for that technology, it simply means that specific company failed to develop it properly due to their limited ability, time or money.

You claimed Thief III could be done better if it was done some years further down the line. I’m saying Thief III could have been done better NOW and the company simply failed to do it. Others haven’t. That’s very different from your points. You could say they shouldn’t have tried to do it yet but then again I don’t think they were thinking they would fail when they started working on it, they simply knew it was possible so they went for it.

it’s not that i don’t enjoy talking to you, it just seems like we only talk when i’ve offended you :anjou_sad:

i was actually supporting both points (since they are both in my favor in the original topic).

originally i was saying thief could have been done better NOW if they hadn’t felt the need to senselessly screw around with all the new technology- as you stated, they began with the unreal engine and spliced in havok2 code etc. i said earlier that splintercell came out before, looked better, and played better than thief 3. the reason i see for that is because ubisoft didn’t screw around, they knew what they wanted out of the game and they cut out all the excess crap that would slow the game down and make it run awkwardly. ion storm did not, they were experimenting with everything they could get their hands on.

then i started saying, in response to abadd’s next point, that all the stuff that thief wanted to implement would be very impressive if it were done comprehensively once there was the software/hardware to back it all up. real-time shadows on everything, high polycounts, advanced (and SPEEDY) AI, and larger areas with lower loading times should probably be tried on next-gen systems for best chance of success.

Again. I fail to see why you think I was offended or took anything personally simply because I have expressed a different opinion :anjou_sigh:

The problem wasn’t the hardware or the software, it was the inability of the programmers/developers. Thief 3 didn’t only end up bad on the X-box, it wsa just as bad on any high powered PC, FPS and loading problems included. The developers didn’t set out to do the impossible or the top high tech thing, they set out to do something very possible, they simply failed to do it.
If another Sega team had set out to do something like PDS on the saturn, and it ended up a bad game with a bad engine, would that mean that they set out to do the impossible just to use “new” techs? No, it would simply mean the developers did things wrong. So that shouldn’t stop TA from trying to do PDS simply because another, “lower” developer failed to do it. Should it?
I really don’t see how the badly developed games are an example of when people should or sholdn’t try to use new/better technology. And I’d like to add that the fps problems of Thief III weren’t due to the dynamic shadows since Deus Ex:IW was using the same engine but you could disable the shadows in it since they weren’t integral to the gameplay like in Thief III. The game was still horribly developed and run just as bad. In fact, Thief III was a slight improvement over it.

admit it! you hate me! :anjou_angry:

that’s exactly what i was saying. i’m not against trying new things, i’m against trying anything that is unecessary when it hurts the game. thief was the frankenstein of programming- had they not put all that crap together so sloppily, it could have turned out ok. it’s all about streamlining your code to serve your game WITH NO EXCESS to slow it down or cause problems.