Possible explanation for change of art direction in Orta

So how about that “little evidence” then Kadamose rather than a blank statement :slight_smile:
I don’t think we have anything to support that theory…

I agree with D-Unit’s point that the individual pieces could have been grown or created elsewhere; that would make sense. But then I also agree with your point that the Towers probably aren’t entirely organic; they do seem to be made out of numerous component parts, many of which look organic and many of which look mechanical (e.g. the golden mechanisms that I mentioned earlier).

That actually reminds me of another example of the mechanical interior that some Ancient technologies have. When you destroy Shelcoof’s float rudders/paddles in Zwei, they again have mechanical insides. But then I guess there’s no way of knowing whether or not there was more bio-technology inside that mechanism, producing the antigravity field itself. At any rate, these things are surely a fusion of both technologies.

Strictly speaking, the modern meaning of the word is just something like “of / relating to organic entities / organic matter”. It might have meant something to do with organs in the distant past though, before science had recognised the concept of organic matter.

[quote=“Al3xand3r”]So how about that “little evidence” then Kadamose rather than a blank statement :slight_smile:
I don’t think we have anything to support that theory…[/quote]

I can’t remember which bible it was in, but in one of them it mentioned how the Towers were able to produce infinite amounts of monsters on their own without any guided intervention, whatsoever. This would require technology that could build things from the ground up, whether it be life or material goods. With this in mind, it is pretty much safe to assume that the Towers are one big MNT Assembler - maybe I’m thinking just a tad too deep here, and not seeing things as they truly are…but I’m beginning to get the impression that the Towers have a much bigger purpose than simply restoring the ecosystem of the planet.

I’d almost forgotten about the Cradle, and it might be very relevant to this whole debate.

Some text in PDO confirms that although Abadd operated the Cradle for the Empire, the Academy scientists themselves designed the dragonmares. With the designs fed in, The Cradle first produced finished but lifeless dragonmares, which then needed bringing to life by some final process.

That implies that not only could these bio-reactors produce whatever design was fed into them, but that they could also produce non-living organic constructs. It would make sense if float engines and other artefacts were created in a similar way to this.

[quote=“Lance”]
I’d almost forgotten about the Cradle, and it might be very relevant to this whole debate.

Some text in PDO confirms that although Abadd operated the Cradle for the Empire, the Academy scientists themselves designed the dragonmares. With the designs fed in, The Cradle first produced finished but lifeless dragonmares, which then needed bringing to life by some final process.

That implies that not only could these bio-reactors produce whatever design was fed into them, but that they could also produce non-living organic constructs. It would make sense if float engines and other artefacts were created in a similar way to this.[/quote]

Can you say…MNT Assembler?

Where is this mentioned? I assume it’s in Pandora’s Box, but I don’t remember reading that the Empire actually managed to create lifeless dragonmares themselves.

[quote=“D-Unit”]
Where is this mentioned? I assume it’s in Pandora’s Box, but I don’t remember reading that the Empire actually managed to create lifeless dragonmares themselves.[/quote]

If I remember correctly, it was Iva’s father who helped design the Dragonmares. Abadd was the one who used those designs, and gave them life via the Cradle.

It is possible to create organic materials without the need for nanotechnology. Well, that depends on what you define as nanotechnology, really.

If you mean to refer to it as the ability to manipulate things on a nano scale, then of course, the Ancients had to use nanotechnology to get that sort of sophistication. However, there is no evidence to back up any statement that they solely used nanoparticles and nanomachines in the building of their constructs.

(And no, not all of the Ancient technolog is organically-based. All those gold areas you see right before the data gateway? That’s the true core of the Ancient’s technology.)

Hmm… I’ve got to say I’m sceptical of this, simply because a different or greater purpose for the Tower network is never implicated. As far as we know, their only purpose was to restore the ravaged environment. Although the Towers could produce their own monsters (presumably through internal Cradle-like bio-reactors), those monsters’ only purpose was to help attain this goal: to protect the environment as it rejuvenated. Of course, keeping humankind oppressed was a key part of this plan.

[quote=“Lance”]

Hmm… I’ve got to say I’m sceptical of this, simply because a different or greater purpose for the Tower network is never implicated. As far as we know, their only purpose was to restore the ravaged environment. Although the Towers could produce their own monsters (presumably through internal Cradle-like bio-reactors), those monsters’ only purpose was to help attain this goal: to protect the environment as it rejuvenated. Of course, keeping humankind oppressed was a key part of this plan.[/quote]

Actually, I don’t believe they were just built to regenerate the environment either. Restoring the ecosystem may have been one of their functions, but surely not the only one. Ensuring the survival of the human race was another of the Towers’ objectives. I think the Towers had several objectives, all aimed at fulfilling a greater goal

Sorry if my post implied that, because as far as I can remember we don’t know if the Empire or Abadd was responsible for the initial production of the dragonmares. We do know that the Empire designed them, and we do know that only Abadd could awaken them, though. My point was that the dragonmares were initially created lifeless, and only some second stage of intervention - which Abadd alone could carry out - would awaken them. I thought that might imply that the Cradle could create other things like float engines and organic Tower components in a similar way.

[quote=“Abadd”]It is possible to create organic materials without the need for nanotechnology. Well, that depends on what you define as nanotechnology, really.

If you mean to refer to it as the ability to manipulate things on a nano scale, then of course, the Ancients had to use nanotechnology to get that sort of sophistication. However, there is no evidence to back up any statement that they solely used nanoparticles and nanomachines in the building of their constructs.

(And no, not all of the Ancient technolog is organically-based. All those gold areas you see right before the data gateway? That’s the true core of the Ancient’s technology.)[/quote]

I am refering to technology which is able to manipulate an atomic structure and be able to turn it into something else entirely…

Turning lead into gold - or water into wine are the principles I am refering to. But now that I think about it, if the Ancients did have mature Nanotechnology, they would have no need to go into hibernation and allow the Towers to fix the environment…instead they would have been able to do it on-the-fly.

So much for that theory.

Theoretically the Towers could have had other objectives… but in truth, there doesn’t seem to be any evidence or even implications of other purposes, which is where my scepticism arises from. Theoretically, the Towers could have been doing absolutely anything on top of rejuvenating the environment; but as Team Andromeda and Smilebit never tell us about anything else, I’m tempted to belive that they only had the one real purpose.

Also, remember that ensuring the survival of the human race would essentially be one and the same thing as salvaging the planet’s environment. In reality, the Towers were very unconcerned with humankind in general; it clearly didn’t matter how many humans had to die or suffer as long as the world would eventually be restored.

[quote=“Lance”]

Sorry if my post implied that, because as far as I can remember we don’t know if the Empire or Abadd was responsible for the initial production of the dragonmares. We do know that the Empire designed them, and we do know that only Abadd could awaken them, though. My point was that the dragonmares were initially created lifeless, and only some second stage of intervention - which Abadd alone could carry out - would awaken them. I thought that might imply that the Cradle could create other things like float engines and organic Tower components in a similar way.[/quote]

I’m not sure what you mean by that second stage of intervention. I always assumed that the Empire had the genetic blueprints for the dragonmares and nothing else, but simply could not operate the Cradle, because it was never designed to be controlled by humans. If they already had dragonmares before Abadd helped them then that would mean they were able to operate the Cradle themselves.

No I agree, and I’m really not saying that they could. My point was that, after the Cradle was activated, it produced lifeless dragonmares which then had to be brought to life by some second process. Some of those unactivated dragonmares were being stored inside the Empire’s castle-flagship, some were being stored in the excavation site below the Cradle, and some (probably most) were inside the Cradle itself, and they were awakened before Episode 9. Before that, the dragonmares were completed but they were not alive. I thought that seemed to imply that the Cradle could produce non-living organic constructs, such as the organic components that we were talking about earlier.

Although we haven’t got a lot of facts about the Towers, I think they were **very ** concerned about humanity. Although it may not have mattered whether they suffered or not, I believe humanity played a key role in the Ancients’ “regeneration” plan that began with the end of the Ancient Age. Both Gash and Craymen knew more about this, but they didn’t seem to know all the facts and came to different conclusions. Remember that the Seekers wanted to destroy the Tower network at all cost, even if that would lead to a drastic change in the ecosystem causing the death of half of the entire human population that lived in the Continent. There must have been more to their purpose than simply restoring the environment.

I seem to have misinterpreted your previous posts :slight_smile: I understand what you mean now and agree on your conclusion. So that could mean the Cradle did create float engines as well, which would explain their “new” appearance.

That part of the ruin is very different from the “organic” structures we see before it. It almost seems like you’re inside a golden mechanical clock (certain things resemble the rotating “wheel” in the Tower of PD1 when it opened up in the end). Although we see bridges and places where drones could walk in the organic area, there doesn’t seem to be anything like that in the second part. Anything that wanted to access this part had to fly its way in.

Or it just means that the Empire didn’t have enough knowledge to complete all the processes needed to bring them to life while Abadd obviously could. It doesn’t necessarily mean that the craddle could create things other than bioweapons as well. After all how would we have Orta’s story if the Empire didn’t need Abadd for their goals :stuck_out_tongue:

*Edit: Besides, such an importand bit of information (the creation of the float engines for the new empire’s fleet) would have certainly been written/shown as well imo…

I’m really not sure about that… Craymen and Gash didn’t seem to think that the Towers were anything other than environmental rejuvenators either, as far as I can tell. Craymen apparently wanted to activate the PDS Tower so that the empire could not gain control of it. It did infact unleash waves of new monsters instantly, wiping out the Empire’s entire fleet. As soon as both the PD1 Tower and the PDS Tower went fully active, they violently attacked all human life in the surrounding regions. But this just aided their purpose; because if technologically advanced civilisations were not allowed to grow, the planet could not be threatened. There doesn’t seem to be any greater purpose for the Towers there as far as I can tell.

On the other hand, Gash and the Seekers had realised that the Towers were never going to be able to truly repair the world, and that their production of monsters etc. and their stranglehold on the environment was simply oppressing humanity needlessly. That is, the Towers’ excessivley protective measures were still in place, but they no longer backed up a positive purpose. The Seekers therefore set out to destroy the Towers; and again, I heavily suspect that no other purpose is implied by that.

[quote=“Al3xand3r”]Or it just means that the Empire didn’t have enough knowledge to complete all the processes needed to bring them to life while Abadd obviously could. It doesn’t necessarily mean that the craddle could create things other than bioweapons as well. After all how would we have Orta’s story if the Empire didn’t need Abadd for their goals :stuck_out_tongue:

*Edit: Besides, such an importand bit of information (the creation of the float engines for the new empire’s fleet) would have certainly been written/shown as well imo…[/quote]

As I said before, I’m quite sure that the Empire did need Abadd to produce this stuff properly. The Cradle definitely did put out a lot more dragonmares than Abadd ever awakened, though, so it’s possible that it would have been able to produce float engines in the same way.

I agree that the Cradle probably wasn’t the source of the new float engines, though. That would imply that the Empire could come up with near-perfect genetic schematics for such things; and as the dragonmares looked a bit of a mess compared to Ancient pure-type monsters, I’d expect that Imperial-designed float engines would look similarly different (and inferior).

And yeah, we would almost certainly have been told about this somewhere in Pandora’s Box if it was the truth. My point was simply that the Ancients - with their mastery of genetics - would likely have used these bio-reactor factories to make float engines, although it’s very doubtful that the Empire did.

Craymen said that the monsters Edge had encountered were meant to protect human beings by stopping them from wasting all the natural resources killing one another. The Seekers also believed that if the Towers went active, then the human population would need to be reduced in order to ensure that no one tampers with the purpose of the Towers (to restore the environment).

Notice that Gash said “But we’re not really living, just being kept alive”. That’s why the Seekers sought to destroy the Towers. The human population was being kept at the brink of extinction deliberately. The Heresy dragon, for one reason or another, wanted to break these ancient shackles.