[quote=“Geoffrey Duke”]TA: There has to be a better way.
If we stop believing that, then nothing will ever change.[/quote]
or what about your way Just Talk .
You don’t own a mobile, don’t own a PC, don’t own a TV ? ECT. Where do you think these are made and produced ?; If you do own a PC ECT then you’re supporting an evil Government and since most Electronic products need Gold, you’re also supporting the evil Mining trade in Africa, You try waking into a shop and buying something that isn’t produced in China and its next to impossible now .
None of you here own stuff that doesn’t use Plastic in any form ?, if you do, then the Middle east would like to thank you for supporting the Oil Trade
Talk is Cheap and so bloody easy . Try giving it all up and then come back to me, I so bet you can’t .
It’s not a brick wall its the reality of the Modern Western world, when Oil is used in countless products(not least our keyboards) and where China is the world’s manufacture.
We can all talk a good game, but in practice is hard to Live to the morals . People say they don’t eat meat , because of the cruelty to animals , let have no problems wearing leather shoes , jackets, using make up ect - All for which are by products from Animals , and the moment they have rats in the House are on the phone to Pets control.
Chizzles: I am afraid that when it comes to the government of China, I will be uncompromising. I can’t overlook the evils of any police state and the sheer unstoppable control and corruption that this allows. A system of checks and balances like we have isn’t perfect, but at least it’s open to change.
Compared to the life that those people could have, those people have been deprived of a real future, especially if you believe that we only live once.
[quote=“Team Andromeda”]
[quote=“Geoffrey Duke”]TA: There has to be a better way.
If we stop believing that, then nothing will ever change.[/quote]
or what about your way Just Talk .
You don’t own a mobile, don’t own a PC, don’t own a TV ? ECT. Where do you think these are made and produced ?; If you do own a PC ECT then you’re supporting an evil Government and since most Electronic products need Gold, you’re also supporting the evil Mining trade in Africa, You try waking into a shop and buying something that isn’t produced in China and its next to impossible now .
None of you here own stuff that doesn’t use Plastic in any form ?, if you do, then the Middle east would like to thank you for supporting the Oil Trade
Talk is Cheap and so bloody easy . Try giving it all up and then come back to me, I so bet you can’t .[/quote]
We can buy products without them being the product of slave labor by forcing those countries to actually start believing in human rights and actually producing at home again, and we can drill oil closer to home as we slowly distance ourselves from that addiction and start investing in cleaner energies until that becomes profitable for everyone.
It’s just less profitable at the moment.
You are supporting a system that is designed to not try to benefit you. That is how it forces the best and worst out of people: by giving them no choice by giving them no help.
When people are so impoverished that they have no way out, the envy of the have-nots is turned against the haves. It’s very easily done.
Talk is not cheap. To believe you have no voice is the biggest lie anyone could possibly believe. You have a voice, you just don’t have a message that can reach everyone. Huge difference.
If you want to believe that people are completely powerless, then that is your prerogative.
Through the pursuit of human rights, free trade and not living beyond our means, there is no reason why we still can’t enjoy what we enjoy at the moment, and more. The people enjoying this system at the moment the most are not us.
Yes you are right now excuse me while I vote in a coalition that didn’t actually get a majority vote because the rules were that the public don’t get what they want unless one party had over a certain threshold amount of votes and watch David Cameron brutally rape Nick Clegg in the mouth.
I believe Team Andromeda’s point of ‘Talk is Cheap’ is more along the lines of that is all you are doing.
You have the right message, sure…
If you want to change it, I’m sure there are better ways to go about it than posting on a Panzer Dragoon fan forum…
I deliberately use Chinese products because there are many unique and great products coming out of China and I see no reason not to be proud of it regardless of what ‘white men’ say to me.
Don’t assume that all goods coming out of China are made out of the tears of Sars victims.
China is actually one of the easiest countries in the world to establish a business in, and it is part of Chinese culture that you can achieve anything if you try.
So if you want to support China’s poor, talk less and do more.
If you want us to buy imaginary electronics that have in no way ever been involved with african conflict diamonds or illegal gold mining, or imaginary rice grown by a multi-millionaire imaginary paddy field worker, feel free to establish your own farm or factory.
But the truth is regardless of where you are in the world, this is simple equilibrium in action.
If there is a middle there must be a high. If there is a high there must be a low.
In mainland china, showing signs of financial superiority is considered ill-mannered, such as tipping eatery staff.
Hong Kong, although run by China is still operating identically to how it was when it was under British Rule.
In Hong Kong, people can be very dog-eat-dog socially, people skip past you in waiting lines, take the last bun off of the platter from under your hand, and step-over you if you collapse.
I have even seen a father skip past me and try to pretend to the man at Toys R Us that my games were his games LOL.
You don’t get if you don’t ask… I guess.
I’m not exactly what you’d call rich… far from it, and I swore a long time ago that when I earn enough I will help my own family.
The worst thing is not having your help accepted, when you offer your mom a few grand you lived miserably to achieve to help repair her broken roof and she wont take it.
Honour has it’s downsides.
I am not against the system despite being a ‘victim’ of it… to me, it is just reality’s natural balance in action.
You know what can fuck right off?
Fuckers who sit around buying lottery tickets and complaining about how life is hard because they never win.
We can agree to disagree, because this is actually a part of the problem.
These ideas need to be defeated in the ideological realm, and overlooking them solves nothing. THAT is where most people can make a difference.
Cleggg got what he deserved after what he did. The VAT rise and locking the poor out of a higher education was exactly the opposite of what real liberals are supposed to represent. The Tories only regained power because they managed to SCARE people into voting for them with exaggerated budget deficit claims. We voted back into power people who believe in the very free market system that caused the crash, and now they are bombing another country. Fiscally conservative, wouldn’t you say?
You are right that actions speak louder than words, but when the actions of everyone solidifies the status quo, things will only change when forced by the situation itself, or if you have a chance to start again.
This is one thing you cannot really deny: they can have a better life. The U.S. defense budget alone could rebuild the entire world, but because hunger for power is so inevitable, you literally have to be worse in order to maintain a better way of life.
I know exactly what this stratified Neo-Imperialistic class system does to people by legitimizing the existence of an underclass to scare people out of it, and the excellence it so brutally forces out of them. People will lean in favour of it if that is what it takes to remain free from a big government police state like the one in China that imposed a one child policy on its own people and harvests organs from them.
This is called being our own worst enemy.
People need to stop with the national pride already and let people vote for ideas that bring them the greatest benefit as a whole, not as a minority using the rest.
For example, you bring up an industrial revolution as a phase as if these people were way behind us when they are just as smart.
They are just as smart. It’s insulting to them to think otherwise. They were crippled by ideological fascism.
To allow these poisonous ideas to roam free is just as dangerous as an army at your doorsteps. We can recognize them for what they are.
So no I am not one of those people that believes that most have to suffer so that some can enjoy life. I won’t apologize for it either.
Edit: It’s funny that TA brought up WoW actually since that is a product that was actually made in America/the west which is making money like Hollywood films.
Chizzles, let’s just agree to disagree and let people decide. I don’t want to cause any bad blood here even though I doubt TA is going to budge. >:)
I’m simply saying there is no alternative in the Modern world. Why can you not see or understand this ?.
You can’t pick and choose where the Oil comes from, you can’t pick and choose where our Products are manufactured in . Even if you spend more on products it will be still be mainly made in some sweat shop factory is Asia and when it comes to Plastic it again will be from the likes of the Middle East ect
The only way not to be a part of it , is to give it all up . That means no PC, no TV, No Mobile, no shopping in the Super market. Everything only sourced locally and bought every day (so no need for Plastic to keep items fresh ect). That’s being very General , but that’s about the sum of it
The game was made in the USA. I’m so willing to bet your PC components parts most certainly wasn’t ,and if you bought the disc based version , what product is used to make the DVD, to package the item in and to ship it to the UK, keep all those servers running - OIL .
So again again you’ve been supporting China and the Middle east . Give it all up , if you want to be Moral
The point is: we should be producing more ourselves to lessen the addiction to those places. This cannot last much longer. You can expect some draconian changes in the years to come.
And those people in those countries can and should have a better quality of life. Hopefully in due time, because we can all be a part of the free world. By supporting those tyrannies, they have not been allowed to fail.
The profit motive itself is such that it will always adapt to find ways to make more money anyway. Cleaner more renewable energies are as inevitable as the sun rising in the morning.
In an ideal hippies world of free food and free money that is cool and all -
As a Chinese I have to say I am very proud that the world relies on China as heavily as it does. Most of us are!
Again with the quality of life thing, I’m not sure why foreginers seem to think Chinese people are living in shacks and eating their own children for food…
People like that in China ARE THE MINORITY.
Most chinese do not eat babies.
The only bad thing is Taiwan and Hong Kong get labeled under the same ‘tyrannies’ label as the mainland because most people cannot be assed to look up that those areas actually run under local government - and of course in Taiwan’s case it doesnt even belong to China, but for some reason people still include it…
[quote=“Geoffrey Duke”]The point is: we should be producing more ourselves to lessen the addiction to those places. This cannot last much longer. You can expect some draconian changes in the years to come.
[/quote]
I’m not saying we shouldn’t , only that we’re not . So if you don’t like it, then don’t buy it . Trouble is when you walk in to a shop it’s hard not to see something that isn’t made in China . I have to laugh when on Holidays in Las Vegas even the Las Vegas keyrings and other gifts all had made in China on them
So you like a Government that sent in the tanks to kill and crush unarmed students, a Government that doesn’t allow any workers rights , that doesn’t allow it’s people to practice region and here it’s limits what people can see on the internet, TV or in the papers
I so very thankful to be in the UK and have some sort of workers rights
Who said anything about the GOVERNMENT?
Is it Lenovo’s fault the Government ran over some students like a million years ago?
Is it
I am proud of the Industry, sure in roundabouts it supports the Government, but unless it is direct like ‘here mao have some monnies’ I do not give a fuck.
Hard working people in China make goods and I am proud of that.
I am mainland blood via hong kong born in britiain so while I may not be a communist I am glad that China is spearheading it’s own industrial revolution.
Soon there will be an animation industry, and I have every intention of being there - and games as well.
The animation industry is being expanded as efforts to destroy Japan’s animation industry.
Even Astroboy and Gachamon have already been outsourced to Hong Kong animation studios.
Tell me, Where is the UK’s industry sector?
Oh right lol, gone.
Politics in China do change, since Hong Kong is still benefiting from freedom HK press still prints all the politics of China that the Mainlanders themselves can’t read.
Rights and freedom will come to Mainland China some day.
In the same way they came to Britain.
It was not long ago that the UK had children working in work houses and banned from seeing their own parents in the same workhouse.
I did some extra reading up on Taiwan, according to Taiwan, taiwan is taiwan… and according to China, Taiwan is part of China.
So when purchasing goods from Taiwan be weary that you are supporting the Chinese industrial sector in an imaginary way that exists only inside the heads of the Chinese politicians.
They are a ‘renegade province’ - Wikipedia says western media occasionally reports that China would take Taiwan back by force some day but considering how long they’ve been left alone for I don’t see it happening soon…
[quote=“Chizzles”]Who said anything about the GOVERNMENT?
Hard working people in China make goods and I am proud of that.
[/quote]
What a utterly ridiculous thing to say . The point is about hard working as there’s plenty of hard working people in the UK, USA and Japan . My family coming from a Mining background and while some may say they’re proud of that, that doesn’t change the fight the workers had to do get decent working standards , unlike the Chinese mining industry -where it has an appalling safety record
Banking, R&D, Medical ECT.
If you mean heavy Industry Yep that’s gone, but like you say that will happen in China one day - When they wages and living standards come up to ours ,and 'industry ’ will find another sweat shop factory to make it’s goods
Indeed TA, there is a reason why we limited the power of government and made it transparent. It’s a shame that these days things have become so limitless and murky. The reasons for the whole Libya intervention are so crystal clear that I’m surprised people can’t see them.
I’m listening to the Children of Dune soundtrack, strangely enough!
I guess the U.S. will return to the real Conservative and Liberal values that made it what it was unless it wants to morph into a dragon. People have forgotten that it’s a constitutional Republic because maybe they want to be slaves. I don’t know.
Anyway, you should move to England, Heretic. The people are fairly liberal you know. I guess when you are on the front line of politics, people are forced to decide where they stand much faster.
I have a relevant quote by the way that we should all find amusing:
“I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country; corporations have been enthroned, an era of corruption in High Places will follow, and the Money Power of the Country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the People, until the wealth is aggregated in a few hands, and the Republic is destroyed”.
What a utterly ridiculous thing to say . The point is about hard working as there’s plenty of hard working people in the UK, USA and Japan . My family coming from a Mining background and while some may say they’re proud of that, that doesn’t change the fight the workers had to do get decent working standards , unlike the Chinese mining industry -where it has an appalling safety record
Banking, R&D, Medical ECT.
If you mean heavy Industry Yep that’s gone, but like you say that will happen in China one day - When they wages and living standards come up to ours ,and 'industry ’ will find another sweat shop factory to make it’s goods
Yeah Right[/quote]
What is ridiculous about being proud of a nation’s manufacturing ability?
As far as stereotypes go, UK is infamous globally for being lazy and 24 hour drinkers… sure it’s a stereotype of the nation, but these kind of deeply offensive stereotypes usually hold some kind of universal truth that will enable us to see more how others will see you.
That and the ability to sue people in England.
Not that is necessarily my view of the UK, but it is most certainly several country’s ‘stereotype’ image of the UK and not a stretch of the imagination to see where it comes form.
In the same way the stereotype of China is that chinese are obsessed with rice and work. Maybe Chinese sacrifice personal time for work too much, too often, often sacrificing relations with their own children - not by government imposed value, but by choice. Even 2nd gen Chinese such as myself still often behave this way because it is in our way and the reason China makes a great place for manufacturing.
Even at university, I have seen Chinese students achieve in one night what it takes the other students a whole year to produce.
Again with the ‘living standards’ thing, what is so bad about most of China’s living standards?
Sure in areas like Guilin you have people living in huts, but that is more because of the remoteness of the area they live in than anything else. (There airport is a shed lol)
But what can you expect from ‘mountain people’?
The ‘mountain people’ of america are also comparatively living a simpler life than those on lower land.
When Hong Kong was handed back to china the worry was they’d end up with less civil liberties, but nothing really changed. If anything China learned from Hong Kong.
“Yeah Right”
Yeah. Right.
There are/have been political discussions about starting elections in China in the past, as little ago as 2006.
It was dreamed that at that time, it was too soon for such drastic changes and was not foreseeable for the next decade.
What you have to remember is that a lot of the PEOPLE in China ARE China.
They see YOU as the enemy, in the same way you see them as the Enemy.
You can’t flick a switch from communism to democracy overnight and expect people to just go with the flow, people are complex and do not operate that way.
[quote]
As far as stereotypes go, UK is infamous globally for being lazy and 24 hour drinkers[/quote]
I think you mean our Youth . UK workers work some of the longest hours and have the least holidays in the whole of Europe . I’m sure we have less Public Holidays than Japan and the USA too (though they by far work the longest hours) .
Who said anything about Guiln. I’m on about those factories where the I-Pod and the likes of 360 are produced -where the workers sleep and live in the Factory and work horrible hours, with little or no rights
China won’t even allow Google to operate freely, how many Human Rights protesters are still locked up in China ?.
I don’t see the Chinese as the enemy at all . I just want their people to enjoy what we have - Open Press and open and free elections
I’m probably barely avoiding clinical depression as it is - story of my life really - and so this has been dwelling a little too heavy for me lately, but to keep it simple…
The issue I take with your posts here Team Andromeda, and in general the problem I have with the superficial dialog, is still one of coherence:
*"I’m simply saying there is no alternative in the Modern world. Why can you not see or understand this ?.
“I don’t see the Chinese as the enemy at all . I just want their people to enjoy what we have - Open Press and open and free elections.”*
In the first case you perpetuate the stance: this is just the way things are.
Which contextually becomes the same as: this is the only way things can be; and therefore also *this is the way things SHOULD be. *
Yet in the second case you assert other things should not be the way that they are. And I’m sorry but I have to call that intellectual cowardice. Which at face value is not the worst form of cowardice - you and Chizzles have both suggested the ultimate irrelevance of this intellectual exercise - but if we cannot even confront these issues objectively and directly on an abstract front, then there can be no substantive relevance and progress anyway.
Everything written in stone can still be shattered, yet must ultimately erode regardless.