Japan's hopefully not so "great fall"

[Solo_Wing]

Why’s that, becasue we all love our Mobiles ?

I’m not sure that I see your point with relevance to the topic. Liking mobiles has nothing to do with whether it’s true that they cause cancer or not. I already addressed the point about degrees of certainty in the last post, so I won’t repeat myself here.

I don’t see us using Plants as playing GOD. Now cloning people is playing GOD and imo asking for trouble .

Those are two polar extremes of the spectrum. But what about all the intermediate cases of advancing medical science that goes against what is natural? Antibiotics, organ transplants, etc. If we were really set on not tampering with the natural scheme of things, we’d let those people die instead. Not exactly desirable. I don’t think we can make blanket statements about playing God, when there is a continuum of interference with natural systems. If you’re against in vitro meat, cloning organs, GM food, etc, you really need to say why these things could be bad in terms of consequences to human and animal well being.

It’s from the 80’s so they’ll be not much on the Interweb

I guess we’ll have to leave that issue alone then.

It can you know, you just print more , which I gather we inthe UK and USA have done the past year , but that was put to saving the banks and Economy rather than the Planet.

The banks were bailed out using tax payer money, as far as i’m aware. Although money can “grow” via inflation, it’s not simply a matter of saying “hey, I need a billion dollars now, let’s go and print off some new money.”

[Team_Andromeda]

Those are two polar extremes of the spectrum

There are and I think there comes a time where we need to draw a line and cloning or Gene selection are such area’s imo (not saying it’s right btw)

I’m not sure that I see your point with relevance to the topic.

It’s simple most will ignore that warning because they can’t live with out their Mobiles, we have one report about the MMR jab and there’s a completely different outcome with mum and dads going wild, but no issues with giving their kids mobile (even though the Skull is not fully developed )

People can be very selective in what reports they go on

The banks were bailed out using tax payer money

No just Tax payers money , but massive amounts of borrowing . Now which is more important the Banks or the World ? It is a simple question
Governments have billions in Gold reserves, I put to you, you’ll never see that spent on making the world cut it’s love affair with Oil .

Yes I do. Sadly

Well then you should know that it was a problem built up over time, and not a flash in the pan.

Yes it is and it is still wrong,

WHY ? even Japan does this too

They were doing only what was logical at the time in keeping up with the demands of growth.

Common logic says you cut taxes and spending at times of growth , not the other away around .

So let’s create more social mobility

It’s a bit of pie in the SKY stuff mate . It’s always better who you know, rather than what you know and that happens in the Factory with friends getting Jobs for their mates .

What I would like to see is Markets open to all and everyone in the world having a Open and free election . Very basic rights that everyone in the world should have

[Geoffrey]

Well then you should know that it was a problem built up over time, and not a flash in the pan.

That’s a separate issue. A system operating on perpetual debt will always crash because it really needs to stay in line with constant huge growth. There are other issues with it (it’s really a stealth “graduated income tax”) but let’s not go there.

WHY ? even Japan does this too

You need to separate being competitive from doing it without concern for others.

Common logic says you cut taxes and spending at times of growth , not the other away around .

That’s all relative. You cut taxes to encourage growth if growth is even possible sure, but with regards to spending there are other factors to consider when the growth is cyclical more than outwards (like an aging population). But the point is they were keeping up with the free market’s momentum with public sector expansion being one of the side effects.

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]It’s a bit of pie in the SKY stuff mate . It’s always better who you know, rather than what you know and that happens in the Factory with friends getting Jobs for their mates .

What I would like to see is Markets open to all and everyone in the world having a Open and free election . Very basic rights that everyone in the world should have[/quote]

We’re not still living in the Stone Age for a reason, and a better world can be created instead of us being forced to always adapt to someone else’s hell.

[Ancient_Weapon]

There are and I think there comes a time where we need to draw a line and cloning or Gene selection are such area’s imo (not saying it’s right btw)

Cloning of what? Medical cloning of tissues/organs could provide much-needed solutions to many huge health problems. And what do you mean by ?Gene selection?? Does that seemingly unnecessary capital letter connote some idiosyncratic definition I?m unaware of, perhaps the use of recombination to produce medications such as insulin? That seems like a fairly legitimate usage of biotechnology to me.

In any field of biological engineering, a line does need to be drawn (many lines, actually, to ward off dangers from various spheres: ethical, safety, evil geniuses concocting lethal flatulence, conceited parents wanting ?designer babies? [let?s just [i]all stop having babies, can we?], etc.)?but, as Solo said (and as should be obvious for any human issue), one cannot view this in black and white. Writing off the entire issue entails ignoring the positive outcomes it has had; perhaps more numerous are those it could have, much like all of humanity?s endeavours (such a shame to see how those usually turn out instead, eh?)

[Solo_Wing]

Here’s a link to a video of the talk I went to see with Dr James Hanson. Well worth a watch, if you can grab a spare hour and a half.

otago.ac.nz/news/itunesu/pod … 018640.mp4 (251.5 MB)
He comes on at 5 minutes, 14 seconds into the video.

I’ll address the other points in this thread later.

[Team_Andromeda]

Cloning of what? Medical cloning of tissues/organs could provide much-needed solutions to many huge health problems.

Cloning the Top breed of animals for the Food chain mainly, This issue about Organs could be eased in a BIG way overnight : As so as you die your Organs become the property of the NHS/Government instead of being food for the dire or the worms , its can be as simple as that

And what do you mean by ?Gene selection?

Creating the perfect baby where you can chose the sex of the baby even down to the colours of the babies eye’s .

That’s a separate issue.

It’s not… the reason why we’re having massive cutbacks is exactly because of our debt. The bank bail out cost to the UK, is not even figured in the UK budget deficit figures at all , neither is the country PFI debts (which comes to billions for the NHS alone )

[quote]
You need to separate being competitive from doing it without concern for others[/quote]

And you need to wake up to how Japan has outsourced just as much as the West.

But the point is they were keeping up with the free market’s momentum with public sector

Labour spent more than the country could afford and left the country in debt up it’s eyeballs, just like Labour did in the 70’s .

created instead of us being forced to always adapt to someone else’s hell

As long as there’s religion that’s going to be hard and pipe dream , and even in out great world, its who you know, rather that what you know

[Geoffrey]

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]It’s not… the reason why we’re having massive cutbacks is exactly because of our debt. The bank bail out cost to the UK, is not even figured in the UK budget deficit figures at all , neither is the country PFI debts (which comes to billions for the NHS alone )

And you need to wake up to how Japan has outsourced just as much as the West.
Labour spent more than the country could afford and left the country in debt up it’s eyeballs, just like Labour did in the 70’s .

As long as there’s religion that’s going to be hard and pipe dream , and even in out great world, its who you know, rather that what you know[/quote]

That doesn’t mean it can’t be changed.

Yes, they ran up debts, and yes the free market crashed the economy, and yes, the banks should not have been bailed out especially if they were gambling. And yes the good times let them borrow.

The point is, this is what an unregulated free market does. It crashes, then is reborn from its ashes into whatever works.

So again, even if governments benefited, which they did, unless they forced the banks into doing what they did, it’s still irrelevant.

All this achieves is a demand for more government control.

Outsourcing is about being competitive, and like I keep saying, it’s wrong, but they are just doing whatever it takes to max profits. As long as corporate greed benefits, why would the nature of that beast change? It won’t, but that can be a force for great prosperity too.

But at the same time you don’t want to help change the havens for this outsourcing because you won’t give up the western way of life, even though lack of investment in ourselves will kill ourselves eventually.

Something has to change. And soon.

[Ancient_Weapon]

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]

Cloning of what? Medical cloning of tissues/organs could provide much-needed solutions to many huge health problems.

Cloning the Top breed of animals for the Food chain mainly[/quote]

Well, since I wholly oppose the enslavement and murder of other animals for our selfish gratification, it doesn?t much bother me whether anyone else is eating animals who happen to be genetically identical to or otherwise artificially derived from each other. I suppose there are potential health and safety issues to be taken into account, but?whatever.

This issue about Organs could be eased in a BIG way overnight : As so as you die your Organs become the property of the NHS/Government instead of being food for the dire or the worms , its can be as simple as that

Hoo! This will end well: the state having a default right to one?s body after their death. Much more sensible is changing organ donation from its current opt-in system to one where consent is assumed unless the individual actively opts out; however, even that comes with some issues, mainly because I anticipate complaints from families of those who weren?t aware of this hypothetical procedure (whether through their own lack of awareness or a lack of education from the authorities).

[Team_Andromeda]

This will end well: the state having a default right to one?s body after their death

‘Organs’ mate or the body for the soul. And the state already have a take on one’s money or assets when dead anyway

Much more sensible is changing organ donation from its current opt-in system to one where consent is assumed unless the individual actively opts ou

pointless paper work and too much fuss . Just allow the NHS/State to have your Organs and a whole host of problems are solved. They’re no good to person or the family that is dead

I anticipate complaints from families of those who weren?t aware of this hypothetical procedure

I can understand that ,but what could are the organs to the dead persons family anyway ?. If you believe in GOD or whatever, then it’s the person soul that goes to Heaven not the Organs - All they will be food for worms or fuel for the fire .

Well, since I wholly oppose the enslavement and murder of other animals for our selfish gratification

But will have no trouble with mice being grown for people ear’s (I’m sure we’ve all seen the pic )or Pigs being growing for people actual Heart replacements (yes I know the NHS already uses veins). Which is all planned or indeed already being conduced by those wonderful Gene experts

Just has long as it’s not for Food ?

[Ancient_Weapon]

One doesn?t have to be religious to possibly want oneself or relatives to be physically intact after death. I actually think everyone should volunteer to donate their organs, but I?m not about to support the state forcing them. Whether the state is entitled to one?s possessions is another issue entirely, but it?s a world away from taking the person?s organs!

[quote=“Team Andromeda”]

Well, since I wholly oppose the enslavement and murder of other animals for our selfish gratification

But will have no trouble with mice being grown for people ear’s (I’m sure we’ve all seen the pic )or Pigs being growing for people actual Heart replacements (yes I know the NHS already uses veins). Which is all planned or indeed already being conduced by those wonderful Gene experts?Just has long as it’s not for Food ?[/quote]

Did I say that? There are manifold ethical issues with using animals in any kind of medical research. Chances are, though, assuming it?s for a legitimate purpose (i.e. not cosmetics or anything stupid like that), it?s at least slightly more justifiable than using them for food (at least when we are privileged enough to have another way, and no one can justify factory farming et al.). Don?t expect a black or white answer from me, though, as I haven?t given this much consideration. And you really distrust scientists, don?t you?

[Team_Andromeda]

Whether the state is entitled to one?s possessions is another issue entirely, but it?s a world away from taking the person?s organs!

I see it has just the same and everyone that dies will tend have a postmortem; Just take the organs out , clean the body up and everyone is happy and a huge problem is solved

Did I say that? There are manifold ethical issues with using animals in any kind of medical research

Well Organs are living things and they’ll need a supply of blood and Co2 and so animals will need to become in and grow the Organs for us . I think it’s quite sick myself and too much playing GOD

it?s at least slightly more justifiable than using them for food

We don’t just use animals for Food, but also our clothing or in our Makeup . I’m sure somewhere we’ve all got a bit of leather. But you right Factory farming isn’t right at all

And you really distrust scientists, don?t you?

No I don’t . There’s area’s that lines shouldn’t be crossed and messing around with DNA or cloning are some of them.
There’s quite a lot of science that I agree , many don’t trust Nuclear I have no problems what so ever with it (when it used for electric) or the NHS being allowed to have people’s Organs when you die

[Solo_Wing]

Finally grabbed a chance to catch up on this thread again. I agree with Ancient Weapon’s responses, so I won’t repeat the points that he has addressed here. But I will reemphasise the point about most of these issues not being black and white. We shouldn’t be too quick to draw lines, especially when there are so many advantages that come from advancing science. They are complex issues that have been thought about and debated in depth by scientists and bioethicists. Although we shouldn’t appeal to authority, peer reviewed evidence and reasoning are much more likely to be closer to the truth on these issues than what every day folk are saying on the Internet. Objections to change of this sort really need to be objections to the science.

Putting in vitro meat on the market, for example, could be a positive thing for the well being of animals. Since it is not grown inside an animal with a brain, no animal can suffer during it’s creation. Every argument that I’ve heard against in vitro meat has come down to either yuck factors, or because it’s considered unnatural - defences of the status quo. These arguments are fallacious in that they have no bearing on the consequences.

By the way, I agree you Team Andromeda, on the organs issue, at least with respect to it being better to take organs from dead humans rather than growing them inside pigs. It is no a straight forward issue though, because in certain belief systems the corpse is considered sacred. In a multicultural society, those views need to at least be taken into consideration (freedom of religion, etc). I do think that the scientific view should be the default position though, unless the person requests otherwise before they die. In other words, a hard opt out approach.

As for governments creating new money to invest in renewable energy, I don’t believe that there any evidence that it is that simple. It’s all speculation to suggest that individual governments can when they’re part of an interlinked global economy.

[Team_Andromeda]

It is no a straight forward issue though, because in certain belief systems the corpse is considered sacred

I agree . I think the basic problem when it comes to Climate change or indeed food supply is that there are simply too many people living on Earth and we’re doing nothing to stop the population increase and that’s the biggest danger the worlds face imo (I could well be wrong)

One area I would be in favour though in terms of GM debate is if they could come up a with crop that wouldn’t allow farmers to grow opium poppy, but only say a food planet instead ( sorry to be so basic & general here) So we could spray all those fields in the likes of Afghanistan and rid us of the like of Heroin with out the needs for war or killing people , while still allowing the farmers to grow food for the people

As for governments creating new money to invest in renewable energy,

I want to make it clear I’m not against renewable energy too , I just dead against Windfarms that’s all . Solar makes perfect sense in some countries and tidal makes perfect sense in ours - Why we haven’t built the severn barrage is really beyond me

[Solo_Wing]

I think the basic problem when it comes to Climate change or indeed food supply is that there are simply too many people living on Earth and we’re doing nothing to stop the population increase and that’s the biggest danger the worlds face imo (I could well be wrong)

I agree, overpopulation is a huge problem, but it’s taboo to bring up any strategies for controlling the population without people yelling “infanticide!” as if draconian measures were the only solution. Generally, more people is considered a good thing. A carry over from times in the past when having a lot of children would have been beneficial. Somehow that attitude needs to change so that people will value having smaller families. I’m not sure what the best solution is to the problem, but education and financial security have a part to play in it. The population in Western countries is a lot more stable than in countries without these opportunities. No accident.

I want to make it clear I’m not against renewable energy too , I just dead against Windfarms that’s all . Solar makes perfect sense in some countries and tidal makes perfect sense in ours - Why we haven’t built the severn barrage is really beyond me

It comes down to what the market wants. The government can interfere, but then people complain about too much socialism. I think we need to be open to these changes when it makes sense, and not get too court up in the ideologies.